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The western rite in Orthodoxy today

Western Rite

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#281 Hieromonk Aidan

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:50 PM

Fr. Aidan, could you respond to the unanswered question that I posed to you as well?


Yes, dear brother. The Liturgy of St. James, exactly like the Roman rite Canon of the Mass, has been in continual use in the Orthodox Church up to the present time.

The idea that Western rite died out in the Orthodox Church historically, is an urban myth which has been exploded by the best of recent Orthodox scholarship.

#282 Hieromonk Aidan

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:55 PM

P.S. What if a scholar could demonstrate that the Orthodox Church has always had a very small number of married bishops (as is occasionally rumored, even today, unknown to the vast majority of Orthodox Christians) within its visible boundaries, would that mean the married episcopate is part of a "continuous, living tradition"?


Now there are your apples and oranges; there is a rule against married bishops, whereas the Orthodox Church has never had a rule against Western Rite. Married bishops have not been approved by Orthodox Church authority; Western Rite has. Saints of our Church have never advocated for married bishops; Saints have advocated for Western Rite. No Saint, throughout history, has ever advocated against Western Rite.

Nor would I classify something such as pedophilia as a "continuous, living tradition," even if it may have been present, in some way and to some extent, in all generations of Orthodox Christians from the beginning of the Church until now.

#283 Jason Hunt

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 07:53 PM

The Liturgy of St. James, exactly like the Roman rite Canon of the Mass, has been in continual use in the Orthodox Church up to the present time.

The idea that Western rite died out in the Orthodox Church historically, is an urban myth which has been exploded by the best of recent Orthodox scholarship.


Fr. Aidan, thank you for your reply. I honestly did not realize that the Western Rite has been in continual usage in the Orthodox Church as has the Liturgy of St. James. Just as the Church in Russia sent a delegation to Zakynthos and Jerusalem to learn how to serve the liturgy of St. James as it has been handed down through the centuries, is there a similar location or church where one can go to learn the Western Rite exactly as it has been handed down through the centuries?

In Christ,

Jason

#284 Ryan

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 08:14 PM

Yes, dear brother. The Liturgy of St. James, exactly like the Roman rite Canon of the Mass, has been in continual use in the Orthodox Church up to the present time.


Where has this canon been in use?

The idea that Western rite died out in the Orthodox Church historically, is an urban myth which has been exploded by the best of recent Orthodox scholarship.


Then why is the WR mass constructed from Anglican and Roman Catholic texts?

#285 Christophoros

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 11:54 PM

Hieromonk Aidan wrote: "there is a rule against married bishops, whereas the Orthodox Church has never had a rule against Western Rite."

Actually, there is no "rule" for or against the WR in the Orthodox Church; some bishops accept it, others reject it. In fact, the Synod of Bishops of the ROCOR, whom you are subject to, up until recently rejected the WR while quietly tolerating a small WR monastery under its jurisdiction.

Hieromonk Aidan wrote: "Married bishops have not been approved by Orthodox Church authority; Western Rite has."

Once again, the WR has been approved by some and rejected by others. And as you must be aware, there have been a number of prominent married bishops glorified by the Church in the distant past.

Hieromonk Aidan wrote: "Saints have advocated for Western Rite. No Saint, throughout history, has ever advocated against Western Rite." You confuse the 19th-21st century Western Rite with that of the pre-11th century Western Rite. (Sounds quite similar to those 20th c. Messianic Jews who claim organic continuity with the "Nazarene" communites in the 1st-2nd c). In dealing with the contemporary WR, saints - living and departed - have spoken on both sides of the issue. To competitively claim "we have saints, you don't" is really unecessary, not to mention inaccurate. Ask anyone who has discussed the subject with contemporary startzy and gerondas - living vessels of the Holy Spirit - and you will get a variety of opinions. The same with bishops, even within your own ROCOR.

#286 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:01 AM

Actually, there is no "rule" for or against the WR in the Orthodox Church; some bishops accept it, others reject it. In fact, the Synod of Bishops of the ROCOR, whom you are subject to, up until recently rejected the WR while quietly tolerating a small WR monastery under its jurisdiction.


Sounds like you are simply reinforcing Fr. Aidan's comments. No rule means no rule, acceptance or "rejection" notwithstanding.

Once again, the WR has been approved by some and rejected by others. And as you must be aware, there have been a number of prominent married bishops glorified by the Church in the distant past.


Nonetheless, the proscription against married bishops is and has been universal. By your own comment, universal proscription against WR, not so much.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.
Herman the Pooh

#287 Christophoros

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:15 AM

No one argues, "bear of little brain", that there is a universal ban on married bishops. However, to say "married bishops have not been approved by Church authority" is overly broad. This was not always the case.

You are quite correct about my comment regarding a rule on the WR. My brain does not function that well at this hour while at work!

#288 Michael Astley

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 09:23 AM

I am not arguing that Western heterodox should not be allowed to use a Western Rite after conversion, at least temporarily, until they learn a Byzantine or Slavic Rite.


I think this road has been travelled before, Jason, and has not led to a happy place. I'm thinking of the situation in France, where a properly functioning Western Rite church became a fragmented and unfortunate shadow of its former self due in no small part to its parent churches playing bait & switch, and not leaving well enough alone. In addition, (and I concede that this is speculation but it seems that the two are linked), had l'ECOF been given the support that is proper from a mother church and thus been allowed to continue and grow in Orthodox stability, it is possible that the more recent irregularities may not have occurred.

I think that we should be sorrowful for our past treatment of the French church and learn not to repeat the same mistakes in the future. If we are willing to permit the Western Rite and acknowledge its Orthodoxy, then we should do so, and if not, then we should make that clear, but to lure people in with talk of the Orthodoxy of the Western Rite, allowing them to use it as Orthodox, and then to later say to them, 'Well, yes, it's sort of Orthodox, but you really should be doing this instead' just sows seeds of mistrust and is a recipe for schism. We have learnt this the hard way.

M

#289 Christophoros

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Posted 18 September 2010 - 12:35 PM

I don't know if anyone has posted this link before, but it contains some excellent observations on the WR by the well-known English ROCOR priest, Archpriest Andrew Phillips:

http://orthodoxengla...uk/westrite.htm

#290 Matthew Thrift

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 12:44 PM

Hello everyone!

I have read this entire thread and found it to be quite interesting. I have a lot to say, but I wanted to start with a question or two that I think is the crux of the matter:

Is there anything within the Eastern Byzantine expression of the faith (prayers, liturgies, hymns, piety, etc.) that would be considered a "vital" part of the overarching life of the Eastern Orthodox Church, that does not also find expression within the whole of the Western Rite as practiced today? When looking at the whole of the Eastern Orthodox expression, is there something there that does not find adequate expression within the Western Rite that would cause concern? If so, what, and how is that determined?

Considering most of the contention seems to be surrounding the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate in general and the Rite of St. Tikhon in particular, feel free to address that particularly.

#291 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:08 PM

This is relevant to this thread: http://www.russianor...nodmeeting.html



#292 Christophoros

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:59 PM

The ROCOR has wisely realized the Western Rite is a futile concept that has beared little fruit, other than division and discord.


Edited by Christophoros, 14 July 2013 - 10:04 PM.


#293 Father David Moser

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:35 PM

The ROCOR has wisely realized the Western Rite is a futile concept that has beared little fruit, other than division and discord.

Actually that is not at all the meaning of the ukaz from ROCOR.  What our Synod of Bishops has "realized" is that the Western Rite is a complex issue and needs to be handled with more attention and care than had been the case in the past.  This ukaz begins the process of finding the proper place for the Western Rite within the Russian Church Outside Russia.

 

Fr David Moser



#294 Christophoros

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:25 AM

With all due respect, the ROCOR clergy I've heard from indicate, given the events of the past few years in the vicariate, it's now more about containment of the WR issue and assimilation than acceptance. It's produced nothing but headaches. Bishop Jerome was one of the most knowledgeable individuals on the Western Rite the Orthodox Church has produced, and it got out of hand even with him at the helm. I don't want to get into too many specifics, but the intervention of Holy Synod was absolutely necessary.

 

If it was just about finding a "proper place" for the WR, I doubt their would be a need for them to "adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church"

 

See:

 

7) To establish a commission to examine the means of integrating clergymen and communities of the Western Rite into the liturgical life of the Russian Orthodox Church...

 

8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.



#295 Father David Moser

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 12:46 AM

With all due respect, the ROCOR clergy I've heard from indicate ... ,

 

In case you hadn't noticed, I am "ROCOR clergy" and have been aware of much of what's going on in this situation.  Bishop Jerome is an old acquaintance and we serve together on a Synodal Commission so his qualities are not unknown to me at all.  The situation with the Western Rite was mishandled and Bishop Jerome was in over his head.  He knew a lot about the WR, however, his strengths do not lie in interpersonal relations, communication, public relations etc and the WR situation needed these skills above all. 

 

The WR in ROCOR is not going away - but neither will it continue "business as usual".  If nothing else, look at the makeup of the commission charged with "overseeing" this situation.  The Metropolitan himself is a firm advocate of WR.  Bishop George is a man of deep spiritual wisdom and not inclined to any hasty moves.  Archpriest Anthony Nelson is a "bi-ritual" priest who serves WR as well as ER.  Archpriest David Straut is sympathetic to WR and has stated that he does not want to see it go away.  If the Synod wanted to dismantle WR altogether, they would have established a much different commission.

 

I caution you and anyone else interested in this situation not to jump to too many conclusions and just wait and see what develops.  I'm sure that it will be much different than any of us expect.

 

ArchPr David Moser

ROCOR



#296 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:40 AM

Is it known what prompted the Holy Synod of ROCOR to act in this way at this point in time?



#297 Father David Moser

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:37 PM

Yes, it is pretty much known, however, this forum is not the appropriate venue for a conversation about internal church administration.

 

Fr David Moser






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