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Is it repentance possible for the angelic orders?

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#21 Victor Mihailoff

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 04:53 AM

[quote name='Robert Hegwood']This renewed discussion on angels in this thread and a couple of the comments made in a tread regarding fallen angels and repentance bring to mind a new question. Indeed it is something that never occurred to me before I encountered those comments

The question is simply this: Do the Saints and Fathers ever speak of angels reproducing? It had always been my impression that the angels were created en masse and that their numbers are fixed. Of course we know some fell.

Both as a protestant and from some Orthodox quarters I have encountered the teaching that the numbers of redeemed mankind will numerically replace those angels who fell and restore the "completeness" of the angelic choirs...or something similar.

The only thing that I can come up with to answer that about angels and demons reproducing is that perhaps someone missinterpreted the teaching that angels can and do increase in stature of virtue and rank in heaven and demons can and do increase in demonic stature and rank in hell. Someone may have mixed it up to mean increase in number. Procreation or reproduction only became neccessary for physical creatures after the fall of man because death became manifest after the fall.

Reproduction came into being to make replacements for dead creatures, otherwise all would have become extinct like the dinosaurs did after the Great Flood. Oh I know, evolutionists claim that those big reptiles died out millions of years before man evolved from apes but they're wrong. Many large sedimentary rocks have been found bearing both bare footed human's prints and dinosaur prints on the same rock. Sedimentary rocks take impressions only when soft, but not when soft mush. The rains would wash away prints that were taken much more than a week before the rock became hardened through sun and air drying. Also, if a dinosaur waliked on the soft rock before this short period of time, then a human walking on the rock "millions' of years later on the hardened rock would leave no impression. Only if dinosaur and man walked on the soft rock within the same week would both sets of prints be created.

Edward or Richard??? Leaky (the father and not the son in any case), the famous archaeologist took a team of students of Arch. with him as free helpers and diggers to Africa. One of them found a large flat sedimentary rock on which could be seen both human and dinosaur prints. Leaky was one of the so called expert scientists who stated for many years that dinosaurs became extinct millions of years before man evolved. This finding he feared would make him a laughing stock so he ordered his diggers/helpers to dig under the rock which was resting near a downhill slope, and push it over. Then he had them bury it and move on to other digging sites. Some of those students reported this to various circles upon their return home.

The original cause for scientists to believe that dinosaurs died out millions of years before man existed was because they were found much deeper in the layers of hardened sediment containing fossils. As the waters of the Great Flood covered the earth, the first animals to get stuck in mud and holes were the heaviest. Dinosaurs had huge bodies but relatively small lungs and practically no fat as mammals do. Just as when a muscular person exhales all the air he can from his lungs he sinks in a pool and when a fat person does the same he floats so too, dinosaurs sank first and mammals, even many dead ones, floated for a time. They say that aligators and crocodiles are really dinosaurs and remained unchanged for "millions" of years. Well they aren't as big as T-Rexes and Brontasauruses or any of the biggest. Many of them could not swim and those that could, for tha most part still exist in diminished form today and did not evolve. Crocodiles living in caves with water are dwarfs less than 1 metre long. Salt water crocs living in the biggest bodies of water are huge. Wooly mamoths were snap frozen at in the North Pole when the "anopy of water in the sky and the fountains of the deep gave forth their water. Their was a sudden woosh of air that produced a temporary vacuum of emense proportions which immediatel lowered the temperature of the poles.

Since angels and demons never die, they do not need replacements. That angels increase in virtue even after the fall of some of them is evidenced by the life of St Michael the Archangel. Before St Michael threw Lucifer out of heaven like a bouncer throws an unruly patron out of a social venue, and lead the good angels against the bad ones, he was an archangel in the lesser leaning of the two meanings of archangel.

As some know, there are 3 ranks of angels and 9 orders. Three orders per rank. The top rank consists of the Thrones, Cherubim and Seraphim. The middle rank consists of Virtues, Powers and Dominions. The lowest rank consists of Principalities, Archangels and Angels. The top ranking angels are also collectively refferred to as Archangels. Prior to the angelic fall, St Michael was an Archangel in the lowest rank. After that fall, he was promoted (immediately or gradually I do not know) to the top rank of Archangels. I believe he took the rank and order once held by Lucifer. All the books I read and audio recordings I played in the last decade containing info on the angelic rank of Lucifer, say that he was a Cherubim. But before then I read that he was a Seraphim. Perhaps one of the moderators would be so kind as to confirm that Lucifer was a Cherubim?

In any case, St. Michael increased in rank so much so that he is now called the Commander of the Heavenly Host. That makes him the highest ranking angel of all. But he has no offspring. Angels do not reproduce and do not die. Neither do demons.

Sorry for side stepping and going for so long. God bless you and yours. Victor

#22 Christopher Dombrowski

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:12 PM

Is not an initially good being choosing to do evil a form of negative repentance?

#23 Ben Johnson

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 07:20 PM

I don't know if this helps the issue, or just makes it more confusing, but according to Lossky the angels were created outside of time, and so fell outside of time, "their unwavering attachment to God or their eternal enmity against Him having been realized instantaneously and for all the ages at the moment of their creation." (Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church, p. 102-103)

I have read part of Lossky and am confused about this part. How do any of us, who are in time, know what happens outside of time?

#24 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 07 May 2009 - 10:09 PM

I have read part of Lossky and am confused about this part. How do any of us, who are in time, know what happens outside of time?

I strongly suspect not, therefore it falls within the realm of pious speculation.

Herman the speculative Pooh

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