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Was man in need of the incarnation prior to the fall?


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#61 Lakis Papas

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Posted 05 January 2015 - 11:29 PM

St Isaac

Chapters of Knoweledge IV.28 excerpt no 120

 

"The entire purpose of the Lord's death was not to redeem us from our sins, or for any other reason, but solely in order that the world might become aware of the love which God has for creation. Had all this astounding affair taken place solely for the purpose of the forgiveness of sin, it would have been sufficient to redeem us by some other means."

 

https://books.google...epage&q&f=false



#62 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 08:17 AM

I see that: the love of God of which St Isaac speaks encompasses redemption, salvation, and God's desire to be united with man.



#63 Anna Stickles

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 06:23 PM

How could man who had not fallen have crucified Christ? That makes no sense. The sacrifice of Christ was the will of the Father because of the Fall.

 

Love by nature is sacrificial, and I think that this is the general point that Lakis is trying to get at, - that God's relationship in love with us is always sacrificial, and that it does not require a fall for it to be this way. Speculatively, we can say that without the Fall there would be no death, there would be no crucifixion in the specific historical terms that we know it, but nevertheless we know truly as St Isaac notes, that the voluntary sacrifice of love is an ongoing reality within the Trinity itself, and in God's relationship with man.

 

In one sense the discussion is about how we use language. Crucifixion can be a specific historical type of punishment, but brought into the Church and into Christ's transforming reality, it becomes representative of complete and selfless sacrificial love.

 

It's a more allegorical use of language,but this approach to talking about the faith is something that we find in certain of the Fathers. I guess it is a matter of balance, since the word itself becomes representative of love, precisely through a specific historical reality connected with Christ.


Edited by Anna Stickles, 06 January 2015 - 06:38 PM.


#64 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 06 January 2015 - 08:06 PM

Rather than 'sacrificial' might we rather say, 'kenotic'?



#65 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 26 March 2016 - 03:45 PM

The letters from Elder Sophrony to David Balfour have just been published in English. In one of those letters, Fr Sophrony describes the idea that the Incarnation would have taken place in any case as a theologoumenon and that he 'absolutely' does not accept it.






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