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Why are there carnivores?


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#81 John Craford

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 06:55 PM

Thank you Father Moser.

#82 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 07:21 PM

A question:I wanna know for sure and once and for all is it a sin to never (!) ever eat anything that was or is living (animals, fish)? Is it a sin to be a vegetarian? Please answer me. Thanks.


This you should also talk about with your spiritual father or parish priest.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#83 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 28 October 2007 - 07:30 PM

Sorry. I wrote the above when no one else had yet responded.

#84 Victor Mihailoff

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Posted 26 February 2008 - 05:54 AM

Why are there carnivores?

I've been watching this video that was caught on camcorder, of the lions attacking the buffalo.

Buffalo are herbervores, but why aren't lions and why aren't we.

It seems the more cruel to have to kill, to take another animals life for your food.
When nature provides in herbs and vegetables without the need for anyone to be killed or suffer or fear.

It seems in the garden of Eden that that may have been the original case.
But why did God later allow meat eating?

I think it wrong to judge people and maybe even species for eating meat, it's what many do with no thought.
Maybe animals could be tamed to be vegetarians.

I think in lands maybe where there is droughts, how can they grow crops, what else can be done but to eat animals.
After the flood, I doubt vegetation could have been grown for a while, so they would have to eat animals wouldn't they?

I know it's part of most of our cultures, and seems a natural diet of some animals.
But why, is this a cause of the fall?

But why did God permit this?

I can't see it exactly right, and can't see it exactly an evil someone commits to eat meat.

Anyone have any answers on this from the Church Fathers?

Thanks.
In Love.
Paul.


Before the fall of Adam & Eve, death and procreation did not exist. People and animals did not give birth to offspring. All animals and the first couple of humans ate herbs and grasses (see Genesis:1:29,30) they also ate fruit as God allowed but for the fruit of one tree.

After the fall, procreation and death came into being and carnvores, both predators and scavingers were needed to prevent the world from becoming over populated with living animals and covered with rotting carcasses which would bring diseases to the surviving creatures. Man was a vegetarian until the Great Flood. On the Arc, grain was stored to feed vegetarian animals but man was permitted to eat meat for the first time in order to prevent the Arc from being filled with carcasses and also because man was a bigger eater than many other creatures and the grain was needed for the others and also for planting once the flood waters receded.

After the flood, Noah and his family developed a liking for meat, so God permitted them to eat it but to control his eating so as not to become too much like animals. Even today, we have Church fasts for this purpose and others.



#85 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 27 February 2008 - 10:20 AM

Wasn't there a fall before Adam and Eve, that of Lucifer and his colleagues? Would not that fall have corrupted nature and creatures living in it? Was the Garden of Eden which the Lord 'planted' not some enclave set apart from the outside world? After all, Adam and Eve were driven out of Eden - there had to be some place into which to be driven. Unless all this is more symbolic than that.

Edited by Andreas Moran, 01 March 2008 - 09:20 AM.


#86 Victor Mihailoff

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Posted 01 March 2008 - 08:04 AM

Wasn't there a fall before Adam and Eve, that of Lucifer and his colleagues? Would not that fall have corrupted nature and creatures living in it? Was the Garden of Eden which the Lord 'planted' not some enclave set apart from the outside world? After all, Adam and Eve were driven out of Eden - there had to be some place into which to be driven. Unless all this is more symbolic that that.


Dear Andreas Moran. Christ is the way!

Yes there was that earlier fall, but man is Satan's and his minion's replacement. Some theologians say that the curruptible world will not cease and be transfigured until the number of people in heaven equals the number of angels who fell from it.

The fall of the spititual creatures called "fallen angels' is not tied to all creation as the fall of man is. Satan was known in heaven as Lucifer. He was a high ranking angel but not created to lord over physical creation as Adam was. To my knowledge, Lucifer/Satan fell before Adam existed. If I'm wrong, let there be light from someone please.

So the way that first fall ties in with the created physical world was that it gave a reason for God to create replacements whereas the fall of man was also the fall of the phycal creation which man lorded over. If Lucifer fell after Adam and Eve were created then it must have been very shortly after that and there is no reason to think that since Lucifer envied God and wanted to be greater than Him but later became jealous of seeing Adam and Eve in a higher position than he was susequently, sometime after the fall why is this fall not documented in the Book of Genesis? It seems by the number of events described in the Book of Genesis, that not much time traspired between Eve's birth from Adam's rib, and Satan's use of the serpent to "beguile" her. It seems to be the case that Satan already lived downstairs from heaven and watched with envy as man was being pampered by God and given the privilege of assigning names and therefore the very nature and character to every animal in the world as they lined up and entered the Garden obediently awaiting Adam to name them. Satan wanted to be higher than God and now this lowly physical creature was given the position of lord over the entire earth while he was excluded from any high office at all. He was relegated to a position somewhat like that of a gang leader. He was something like the first ganster while Adam was higher then a king.

Yes there was land and creation outside of the Garden of Eden. The Garden was like a nursery school and greenhouse (figuratively) in one. Upon graduation which depended on a number of lessons to be learned, not the least of which was to be obedient to their Creator, Adam and his Eve would become the reigning lord and lady of the whole world and all the physical creatures in it. I can only guess and assume that eventually, God would have sent angels to do their bidding also. Because of the fall of the first people, that never came to pass.

If Adam and his spouse obeyed God or repented of their sin immediately in the Garden of Eden and in either case remained in the Garden of Eden, they would not have reached the higher level in the next life that they earned through suffering and repenting for so many years, 930 for Adam, as they did. They would have lived in Paradise for ever according to St. Symeon the New Theologian in "The Discourses".

The terrain and life outside the Garden was worse not only because of its location outside but also because it became much worse after the fall. The grace of God that clothed Adam and Eve also made the outside world a much more habitable place than it became after the fall. God prepared it as a kingdom for the crowning glory of His creation, man.

The physical world is dying because of the fall. More earthquakes and other natural disasters are the result of the earth's curruptable state which it acquired after the fall. Global warming or if you prefer, climate change is all tied in with the fall of man in the Garden and the end of time when Revelation will come to its ultimate concluding event.

I hope that clarifies it for you. God bless. Victor

#87 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 12:33 AM

It must, of course, be the case that Lucifer fell and became Satan before Adam and Eve since it was Satan who deceived Eve and then Adam into disobedience.

#88 Victor Mihailoff

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 03:46 AM

It must, of course, be the case that Lucifer fell and became Satan before Adam and Eve since it was Satan who deceived Eve and then Adam into disobedience.


Yes. We share the same view here.

#89 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 02 March 2008 - 09:30 PM

I was just watching a programme about a traveller passing through Paraguay. It seems there and elsewhere in South America, much deforestation takes place to clear land for growing soya which is used for making animal feed and so provide meat for the US and European markets.

#90 Paul Cowan

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 04:05 AM

I hope this does not turn into a economics thread, but as much as there is a need to preserve our vast forests, as long as the world's population continues to grow, it seems to me soya with all its varied uses is the best plant to crop. Exportation to the States and EU is only helping these people survive in a relative way without engaging in the poppy or cannibus trade which their countries are known for. At least they are trying to "fit in" to the global market? Let them eat beef. Well, for another 1 hour and 54 minutes at least. :)

Paul

#91 Nina

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 04:13 AM

Let them eat beef. Well, for another 1 hour and 54 minutes at least. :)

Paul


Guaaaahhhh. Can't eat more meat. I am happy that thank God, fasting is starting.

Have a cheesy week!

#92 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 03 March 2008 - 09:51 AM

If God is the landlord and mankind the tenant, then I think God would be justified in forfeiting the lease for the tenant's serious and irremediable breaches of covenant. (Sorry - I've just been teaching Forfeiture!)




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