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#201 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 05:50 AM

Oh, that's easy. As soon as we screw up this world enough, they will come and take us to theirs so we can screw it up too. So, giving us more time to repent of our sins.


I was being serious :-) Every single person on this thread can prove (using Patristics) that Creation was made for the survival and the salvation of MAN (not aliens). The logical progression from that is to quite easily prove that an alien can not assist in the survival and salvation of man ... and therefore can not exist ... and therefore what we see can only be attribnuted to visions of demons manifesting into a myth that they have created to deceive mankind ... using the art of philosophical if ... or ... and ...

Random Creation (and therefore) the possibility of intelligent lifeform elsewhere can not coexist with Genesis where God made Adam and Eve ... if he also made Aliens they would have participated in the story of Creation and they too should have had choice to taste from the tree.

Either God is wrong in Genesis (Creation was not made for man since it is random) or science is wrong (Creation was random and therefore man is not the centre of its purpose and the bible should be disgarded)

#202 Paul Cowan

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 05:59 AM

I wasn't. I don't believe in aliens.

But then we do say in the Creed I believe in all things seen and unseen. Yes, I know it does not apply to what does not exist. In your theorum, I do not follow A to B.

The logical progression from that is to quite easily prove that an alien can not assist in the survival and salvation of man ... and just on that proof can never therefore actually exist


How do you (plural) know that if aliens existed they could not help man in his salvation? Since it cannot be proven until we interact with them, then the proof can never be proven.

#203 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:17 AM

I wasn't. I don't believe in aliens.

But then we do say in the Creed I believe in all things seen and unseen. Yes, I know it does not apply to what does not exist. In your theorum, I do not follow A to B.

Unseen references the angels who serve God and serve man, we have been told about them through the Scripture and the Tradition of the church ...

How do you (plural) know that if aliens existed they could not help man in his salvation? Since it cannot be proven until we interact with them, then the proof can never be proven.


Heheh ... they could not exist for our salvation merely because they would have been defined in the Bible ... Creation was made for man thefore everything WE need for salvation is defined in the Bible ... I wish I had a patristic quote that would back this up :-) The fact that the bible does not mention "aliens" in the understanding we have of what they are ... should be enough :-)

#204 Paul Cowan

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:36 AM

The fact that the bible does not mention "aliens" in the understanding we have of what they are ... should be enough :-)


Careful there. That's a double edged sword. We fuss at the PC for saying the reverse.

Since aliens from other planets do not exist and we all know that, this thread is moot. But on the topic you just touched on we might expand it a bit? Because the Bible does or does not say something on a given topic, modern man seems at leisure to speculate. How many times have we heard someone say, "well, if it's not in the Bible..." or "the Bible does not say anything about (X)" . Computers are also not in the Bible, but look at us now.

I don't think the Fathers talk about aliens or mention anything about their existence or lack thereof. Demons, yes. Some have said if there is no life out there, it's alot of wasted space. Is it? Maybe it is God's way of showing us how small we are and the magnitude of His authorship abilities (to use your favorite word).

What did He say to Abraham and not being able to count the stars?

I was going somewhere with this thought, now I can't seem to remember where.

#205 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 07:02 AM

Careful there. That's a double edged sword. We fuss at the PC for saying the reverse.

Since aliens from other planets do not exist and we all know that, this thread is moot. But on the topic you just touched on we might expand it a bit? Because the Bible does or does not say something on a given topic, modern man seems at leisure to speculate. How many times have we heard someone say, "well, if it's not in the Bible..." or "the Bible does not say anything about (X)" . Computers are also not in the Bible, but look at us now.

I don't think the Fathers talk about aliens or mention anything about their existence or lack thereof. Demons, yes. Some have said if there is no life out there, it's alot of wasted space. Is it? Maybe it is God's way of showing us how small we are and the magnitude of His authorship abilities (to use your favorite word).

What did He say to Abraham and not being able to count the stars?

I was going somewhere with this thought, now I can't seem to remember where.


Yes, a very good point made Paul and fortunately we are on the same page with it and I agree it is a moot subject but there are even some who are Orthodox and speculate it as a possibility rather than trusting in the church on this matter ... and they have every right to ask questions .. there is nothing wrong with that provided we also trust the church in our search for the truth ...

I am not a Sola Scriptura individual ... for the reasons you mention. I DO believe everything we need for our salvation and for our survival IS in the bible ... those matters that are left out ... are left out intentionally by God because they are not necessary for us! This belief is quite different to the point u made :-)

Anything that was made for man is in the Bible is what I am saying. The computer is not made by God it is made by man (hence not in the bible) and so on. An 'alien' (by logic is not made by man and therefore, if made by God, would be mentioned by God ... the point that not everything is in the Bible doesnt hold with aliens because it is TOO important an issue to leave out ... hence, the fact its not there is because it doesnt exist ...

The existance of aliens (not as demons but as actual creatures with intelligence) would prove God to be a liar ... I really do think it is not one of those situations that it was left out because it ISNT :-) I hope you understand :-)

Oh, PS, perhaps Patristics dont touch aliens because they had IDOLS they dealt with instead ... in there era, they didnt have aliens ... they had statues that could do mystical things ...oracles who acted like demi-gods and so on ... there was enough demonic activity to fool people in this form for the demons requiring to look at alternative means to trick humans ...

#206 Alexander Zhdanov

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 08:52 AM

I have understood the basic direction of the discussion and I basically agree with it. Certainly, those visions of aliens to which some people are subjected have demonic character. But it is also interesting that some Fathers did not reject existence of life on other planets . I did not read, but my brother told me that he read it in a book by St John of Kronshtad .As far as I remember the name of this book was "The beginning and the end of our mundane world". As far as I remeber I read similar opinion in a book by archbishop Luka ( Vojno-Jasenetsky) "Spirit, soul and body". Anyway he considered that planets and stars are really populated with reasonable beings-angels.
Alexander:)

#207 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 10:30 AM

I have understood the basic direction of the discussion and I basically agree with it. Certainly, those visions of aliens to which some people are subjected have demonic character. But it is also interesting that some Fathers did not reject existence of life on other planets . I did not read, but my brother told me that he read it in a book by St John of Kronshtad .As far as I remember the name of this book was "The beginning and the end of our mundane world". As far as I remeber I read similar opinion in a book by archbishop Luka ( Vojno-Jasenetsky) "Spirit, soul and body". Anyway he considered that planets and stars are really populated with reasonable beings-angels.
Alexander:)


See, this is a good reply because it gives us a direction towards patristical thinking on the matter ... if you can find the exact quotes that challenge the traditional thinking on the matter could you please post them. I wont be able to afford any new books in the short term so this new information would be invaluable. Luka Vojno-Jasenetsky is Saint Luke the Doctor, right? I think if he considers the universe to be populated with angels, this is a standard point of view for some theologians in the Orthodox church but it doesnt consider the concept of the viability of aliens :)

#208 Father David Moser

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 05:48 PM

I would like to see some Orthodox writings dating further back than Father Seraphim Rose. He is a wonderful theologian but he is easy to disregard since he is from our day and age ...


The issue of "aliens from another planet" is an idea of quite recent origin, thus the early fathers would never have addressed it (why would they, it was a question that not only was not asked but wasn't even conceivable given the scientific knowledge of the time).

I have heard that Saint Basil wrote a wonderful book called the Hexaimeron ... surely, in this literary masterpiece (which I have not been fortunate enough to read)


You should take the time to read these sermons of St Basil the Great. The whole Hexameron can be found here. Two smaller files with just one each of the nine sermons can be found here (Homily 1) and here (Homily 5) I think that if you read St Basil you will find some of the answers that you want. Another source that I often refer to is St John of Damascus, De Fide Orthodox (the Orthodox Faith) (use the navigation bar on the left side to pull up each book and chapter.)

Was all of Creation (including the universe) created for MAN? Does the Saint write about this?


This was the prevailing view up until quite recently historically - probably beginning in about the 17th century, with the industrial revolution and the flowering of "modern science" this attitude met with the competing idea that man was just an animal, and then with Darwin's Origin of Species the idea was accellerated (no C. Darwin did not come up with that - in fact his grand father E. Darwin also championed the idea, but neither was it original to him I think.) Thus the idea of "aliens" or "life on other planets" would not have even been a conceivable question to the Church Fathers.

Fr David Moser

Edited by Herman Blaydoe, 10 January 2009 - 07:53 PM.
signature and Herman added some formatting


#209 Father David Moser

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 06:31 PM

Some have said if there is no life out there, it's alot of wasted space. Is it? Maybe it is God's way of showing us how small we are and the magnitude of His authorship abilities (to use your favorite word).


Even though the universe is huge (by our standards not God's), I do not believe that it is "wasted space" but rather that such an enormous creation is necessary for the proper functioning of this world for us. In a clock there are many hidden gears and mechanisms and so on, but although none of it is seen and none of it would be recognizeable as a "clock" out of context, even the tiniest screw is necessary for the hands of the clock to consistently point to the correct time. So with the universe, even the smallest particle of matter or energy plays a part in the working of this world upon which God placed us. It is not "wasted space" but rather through the laws of physics and mathematics, each part (visible or invisible) plays its role in the visible working of the world making it the perfect place for us to work out our salvation. This vast and complex Universe is the sign of God's love and care for us.

Fr David Moser

#210 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 01:44 AM

To follow on from Fr David's post, I heard some years ago a radio programme about the universe and views of it, and one scientist said that in terms of physics, the universe had to be as it is to sustain this planet Earth.

#211 Olga

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 01:46 AM

Luka Vojno-Jasenetsky is Saint Luke the Doctor, right?


St Luke of Simferopol and Crimea's birth name, which he continued to use, even after his tonsure as a monk, in his secular profession as a doctor and later as professor of surgery was Valentin Voino-Yassenetsky. Quite an inspiring saint.

#212 Theophrastus

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 01:53 AM


ALL OF CREATION was created for MAN - for his survival and then for his salvation.

How would an alien help man in his survival and in his salvation?


Man needs food to live. Food is gotten, ultimately, from plants. Plants are able to grow because of carbon. Carbon is created inside stars, like the sun. In order for there to be a sun, there has to be other stars. These other stars might have planets, which might have alien life.

Thus, the existence of alien life is made possible by the existence of stars, which themselves make possible Man's existence and salvation.

#213 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 02:05 AM

Man needs food to live. Food is gotten, ultimately, from plants. Plants are able to grow because of carbon. Carbon is created inside stars, like the sun. In order for there to be a sun, there has to be other stars. These other stars might have planets, which might have alien life.

Thus, the existence of alien life is made possible by the existence of stars, which themselves make possible Man's existence and salvation.


For me, just because other planets exist does not give enough merit to the argument aliens exists ... this is human reasoning.

#214 Theophrastus

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 06:33 AM

For me, just because other planets exist does not give enough merit to the argument aliens exists ....


True, but don't be surprised if they do exist. :-)

#215 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 10:11 AM

True, but don't be surprised if they do exist. :-)


I can never be suprised by this ... they dont. Even if I see one in my face, I will always know and never doubt that they are demonic manifestations designed to alter my spiritual path.

#216 Peter S.

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Posted 17 January 2009 - 09:59 PM

True, but don't be surprised if they do exist. :-)


We do not know about aliens, and humans have never been in contact with them so why not just forget them? But humans that have been in contact with God do not easily forget him.

Peter

#217 Michael Stickles

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 01:24 AM

Even if I see one in my face, I will always know and never doubt that they are demonic manifestations designed to alter my spiritual path.


Unless they're actors setting you up for the next episode of "Candid Camera". :-)

#218 Jonathan Companik

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 04:37 AM

The issue of "aliens from another planet" is an idea of quite recent origin, thus the early fathers would never have addressed it (why would they, it was a question that not only was not asked but wasn't even conceivable given the scientific knowledge of the time).



For those interested in the topic, there is an interesting study on this question I would encourage Orthodox everywhere to read. It is by Orthodox patristics scholar, Joseph P. Farrell entitled, "The Cosmic War: Interplanetary Warfare, Modern Physics, and Ancient Texts." The author also has over 30 years experience in physics research, and has studied the ancient texts in question.

Dr. Farrell, incidentally, has also written a number of wonderful theological books, including, "Free Choice in St. Maximus the Confessor", "The Disputation with Pyrrhus of Our Father Among the Saints, Maximus the Confessor", and "God, History, and Dialectic: The Theological Foundations of the Two Europes".

Edited by Jonathan Companik, 18 January 2009 - 04:53 AM.


#219 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 08:36 AM

There are no aliens and Orthodox Christians shouldn't be wasting their time pondering whether there are!

#220 M.C. Steenberg

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Posted 18 January 2009 - 07:48 PM

Dear friends,

Do let's try to keep discussion constructive and useful. Well worn statements of what one believes about the existence of various ideas of life (i.e. such as 'aliens' exist) have likely already been said by participants, and don't need excessive repeating. Let's focus on some of the actual themes of address in this topic; or move on to other topics that interest one more.

INXC, Dcn Matthew




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