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Aliens and beings from other planets


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#41 James Aubuchon

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 02:38 PM

It is interesting to note that occultists have claimed that by following certain rituals, they can contact aliens. Much of this seems to be connected to Aliester Crowley in some way. This includes the "dog people" of Sirius (as if an alien race would actually be sentient dogs). You begin to get the picture that actually these alien encounters are spiritual things in some way. When they do communicate, they always seem to have the same sappy new age message for everybody.

Now this does not imply that there are not actually alien races out there. There may be. But it does imply that the so-called interactions with so-called aliens are not what they seem to be.

It's interesting that even the occultists who contact the aliens question the validity of their experiences. They doubt that they have actually contacted aliens, but rather have tapped into the collective psyche or something.

So there seems to be two possibilities. Either the aliens are demons, or they are some sort of manifestation of dissociated thoughts by the person experiencing them (like in the case of schizophrenia).

So I must remain strongly skeptical here.

Jim

#42 John Craford

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 02:38 PM

Then if the aliens are demons, what for are all the other planets and moons in the universe? All for us, when the Earth will be over populated so we can continue to live on other planets? And as far as I know (but there is a big chance for me to be wrong) the Bible doesn't say that there are or aren't other planets populated by any beings (sentient or not). Correct me if I'm wrong and forgive me if I said something I shouldn't.

#43 James Aubuchon

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 02:51 PM

Then if the aliens are demons, what for are all the other planets and moons in the universe? All for us, when the Earth will be over populated so we can continue to live on other planets? And as far as I know (but there is a big chance for me to be wrong) the Bible doesn't say that there are or aren't other planets populated by any beings (sentient or not). Correct me if I'm wrong and forgive me if I said something I shouldn't.


Note what I said in my post:

Now this does not imply that there are not actually alien races out there. There may be. But it does imply that the so-called interactions with so-called aliens are not what they seem to be.



#44 Father David Moser

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 05:18 PM

I'm not sure this is right Seraphim. Usually wherever in Genesis 1 it says: "And God said", the Fathers interpret this as creation from nothing (ex nihilo) not a derivative creation. The creation of both plants ( Gen 1: 11- 12) and animals (Gen 1: 20-25) is referred to as a result of "And God said."


Fr Seraphim Slobodskoy in his text "The Law of God" does in fact differentiate between two different divine actions that characterize the events of creation. One is the action of "creation ex-nihilo" whereas the other is creation by shaping that which already exists. Both of these actions by God are found within the first chapter of Genesis under the beginning "And God said..."

I think also that St Basil the Great does talk about this kind of "derivative creation"

First here:

1. "And God said Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself." It was deep wisdom that commanded the earth, when it rested after discharging the weight of the waters, first to bring forth grass, then wood as we see it doing still at this time. For the voice that was then heard and this command were as a natural and permanent law for it; it gave fertility and the power to produce fruit for all ages to come;


and later

1. “And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life” after their kind, “and fowl that may fly above the earth” after their kind. Gen. i. 20. ... It still remained for the waters to receive their adornment. The command was given, and immediately the rivers and lakes becoming fruitful brought forth their natural broods; the sea travailed with all kinds of swimming creatures; not even in mud and marshes did the water remain idle; it took its part in creation. Everywhere from its ebullition frogs, gnats and flies came forth. For that which we see to-day is the sign of the past. Thus everywhere the water hastened to obey the Creator’s command.


See here how St Basil instructs us that God instructed the earth to bring forth plants or the water and land to bring forth animal life and in giving that command, gave the earth, water and land the capacity to do so. This I think is a kind of "derivative creation" which is within Orthodox teaching.

A second reason the Fathers would have greatly hesitated about a derivative creation is that in their historical context this would have meant creation from matter existing co-eternally with God which was the idea common for the philosophy of the time. This is different than the derivative creation expressed in more modern ideas about creation but it is doubtful the Fathers would have heard of this idea in the society they lived in.


Here again, I think that St Basil can shed some light:

Yesterday it was said, “Let the waters produce moving things,” and to-day “let the earth bring forth the living creature.” Is the earth then alive? And are the mad-minded Manichæans right in giving it a soul? At these words “Let the earth bring forth,” it did not produce a germ contained in it, but He who gave the order at the same time gifted it with the grace and power to bring forth. When the earth had heard this command “Let the earth bring forth grass and the tree yielding fruit,” it was not grass that it had hidden in it that it caused to spring forth, it did not bring to the surface a palm tree, an oak, a cypress, hitherto kept back in its depths. It is the word of God which forms the nature of things created. “Let the earth bring forth;” that is to say not that she may bring forth that which she has but that she may acquire that which she lacks, when God gives her the power. Even so now, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature,” not the living creature that is contained in herself, but that which the command of God gives her.


Going back to my prior comments, we have to distinguish between the Orthodox idea of God shaping that which has already created out of nothing into a new form - a concept very clear in the first chapter of Genesis - and the heretical idea of there being some pre-existing matter which was not part of God's creative act which somehow was used in creation. A corollary to that heretical idea that St Basil also seems to address is the equally heretical idea that the created earth acted on its own without God's express command in bringing forth life.

Fr David Moser

#45 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 05:23 PM

Would derivative creation explain the limited Orthodox acceptance of evolution?

#46 Father David Moser

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Posted 07 September 2007 - 08:24 PM

Would derivative creation explain the limited Orthodox acceptance of evolution?


There are other problems with the popularly accepted idea of evolution that would suggest that for the Orthodox Christian, we emphasize limited acceptance of a limited understanding of evolution.

One patristic example would be to go back to St Basil the Great who makes the point that the variety of animals on the earth arose fully differentiated and all at once. Now that doesn't preclude intraspecies development (a fully documented occurance) but it does kind of throw a monkey wrench (bad pun, I know) into the concept of simple to complex life over millions and billions of years.

Fr David Moser

#47 John Craford

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 08:51 PM

This magazine views aliens and other mysteries and paranormal stuff on Biblical perspective. I don't say that I agree or dissagree with it but f someone can tell me what is the view of the Orthodox Church on this? Thanks.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=XU5FSC5K

Hope the link works.

If this file and post is bad forgive me please and delete it.

#48 Nina

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 09:07 PM

When I went to Greece I got a document entitling "the alien, Anthony *****" to residence for a year.

Does that count?


There is a show coming up called 'Aliens in America'.

If you google it you can see some previews.

#49 John Craford

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 06:17 PM

How should an Orhtodox Christian act IF (!) alien existance (sentient aliens) is confirmed?

#50 Father David Moser

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 08:02 PM

How should an Orhtodox Christian act IF (!) alien existance (sentient aliens) is confirmed?


He should attend to his own salvation.

Fr David Moser

#51 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 08:15 PM

And if an Orthodox Christian finds fairies at the bottom of his garden? If you encounter an alien, it's likely to be a demon. Tell it to say, 'Jesus Christ is Lord!'

#52 Nina

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 08:20 PM

Tell it to say, 'Jesus Christ is Lord!'


And to make three prostrations in front of the icon of the Holy Trinity. If it is an evil spirit it will not. But thank God I never see good, or evil spirits. Since a Father said:

"Even if an angel was to appear to you do not accept him, but say: "I am not worthy to see such things!'"

#53 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 09:12 PM

How should an Orhtodox Christian act IF (!) alien existance (sentient aliens) is confirmed?


Reduce alcohol intake as soon as possible.

#54 Paul Cowan

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 10:13 PM

How should an Orhtodox Christian act IF (!) alien existance (sentient aliens) is confirmed?


Jorgo,

Is there something you guys in Macedonia are not telling the rest of us?

It's hard to get along with a Klingon even on a good day, but once you get to know them they are devout in their religious beliefs. Remember it is God who will judge those outside the Church.

Keep in mind that prejudices will always get you into trouble. What may look like a cold and uncaring Vulcan exterior, is only home for a deep feeling kind hearted and hurting person. Although most of us could do with a lot more logic in our lives.

Here is one verse many star-gazing folk turn to to prove the existence of extraterrestrials.

John 15:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.


Paul

However,

#55 Effie Ganatsios

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 07:59 AM

Paul, what does this verse actually mean? Is it referring to humans in other countries or can it possibly mean other worlds?

Isn't it completely egotistical to believe that of all the billions of planets, our earth is the only one that is inhabited. The odds are against this. The human race will know whether there are aliens or not someday. There is no truth that will not be revealed at some point. No need to worry about this now.

The Fathers tell us not to believe apparent appearances of those we worship or revere. They are not important. They can be real, they can be figments of our imaginations, or, much worse, they can be evil.

The devil is the great liar. Lies are his business.


Some people, believing they have been blessed, become completely neurotic. Humility is the door to God's grace. Without humility we love to believe that God has blessed us and made us somehow more than other insignificant people who have not had our experiences. The devil even tempted Christ, knowing who He was. Do you seriously believe he won't use our egotism to tempt us into making fools of ourselves by believing that we are more than our fellowmen?

Effie

#56 Kosta

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:15 AM

Whatever life forms may exist outside our planet whether it be microscopic bacteria to advanced species, know that God created everything thru the Logos, who in the fullness of time was incarnate by the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit and became human.

As Hebrews 1.2 instructs us, "Has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (plural)".

And as our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ taught us, "In My Father's house there are many mansons...."(Jn 14.2)

Whatever may or may not exist in the beyond, should not scare us nor make us doubt. For our God is the Creator of all things visible and invisible.

#57 Effie Ganatsios

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:39 AM

Whatever life forms may exist outside our planet whether it be microscopic bacteria to advanced species, know that God created everything thru the Logos, who in the fullness of time was incarnate by the Virgin Mary and the Holy Spirit and became human.

As Hebrews 1.2 instructs us, "Has in these last days spoken unto us by His Son whom He hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds (plural)".

And as our Lord God and Savior Jesus Christ taught us, "In My Father's house there are many mansons...."(Jn 14.2)

Whatever may or may not exist in the beyond, should not scare us nor make us doubt. For our God is the Creator of all things visible and invisible.



Yes, Good Post. Totally agree.

Effie

#58 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 10:57 AM

I repeat what I said earlier in this thread. Christ came once into His Creation, and, for us men and for our salvation, took human form once, was crucified once, was buried once, rose from the dead once, ascended into heaven once. All on earth. If there were beings elsewhere in need of salvation, He would have to go wherever they were and do it all again. But He did all this for us; once; on earth. To say there are other beings 'out there' is nonsense and tears holes in the Creed. And I prefer to be guided by the Creed rather than shifting scientific speculations. IMHO.

#59 Michael Stickles

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:03 PM

Isn't it completely egotistical to believe that of all the billions of planets, our earth is the only one that is inhabited. The odds are against this.


Not necessarily. I remember seeing an equation once for calculating the odds of life elsewhere in the universe, and depending on your assumptions, you can come up with a result anywhere from near-certainty to near-impossibility.

Of course, the real question is "did God create life anywhere else?" He hasn't told us (as far as I know), so I tend to go with Effie on this:

There is no truth that will not be revealed at some point. No need to worry about this now.


I'm afraid I can't quite agree with Andreas:

I repeat what I said earlier in this thread. Christ came once into His Creation, and, for us men and for our salvation, took human form once, was crucified once, was buried once, rose from the dead once, ascended into heaven once. All on earth. If there were beings elsewhere in need of salvation, He would have to go wherever they were and do it all again. But He did all this for us; once; on earth. To say there are other beings 'out there' is nonsense and tears holes in the Creed. And I prefer to be guided by the Creed rather than shifting scientific speculations. IMHO.


If there are beings elsewhere, must they be in need of salvation? Perhaps they never strayed, and their little part of the cosmos is an island of anti-entropy amidst the rest of the groaning creation. Or, if they strayed and also share our human nature, Christ's sacrifice on Earth would apply to them too. If they don't share our nature, perhaps the appropriate means of redemption for them is something completely different.

I do agree with his last sentence, I just don't think it rules out sentient life elsewhere in the cosmos. I don't think there is any such life out there, but that's because of my view of creation, and I would be equally unsurprised to be proven right or proven wrong.

Mike

#60 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 01:30 PM

If there are beings elsewhere, must they be in need of salvation?


Yes - the entire universe was involved in the Fall.

Perhaps they never strayed, and their little part of the cosmos is an island of anti-entropy amidst the rest of the groaning creation.


A still-existing Garden of Eden among the stars? I don't think so.

Or, if they strayed and also share our human nature, Christ's sacrifice on Earth would apply to them too.


No, it could not apply to them. They wouldn't know about it and would not have heard Christ's preaching and would not have the Gospels. They would not be in the Church. There are no sacraments 'out there' and so no salvation.

If they don't share our nature, perhaps the appropriate means of redemption for them is something completely different.


Our nature is based on being made in God's image and in His likeness and so the pinnacle of His creation as the Fathers say. Christ as Second Person of the Holy Trinity united His Divine Nature with our created nature to give us salvation. Such is the divinely ordained way of redemption. It is unspeakable to think that He might save beings of another nature by uniting that nature with His Divine Nature. Without the Divine Christ assuming the nature of His creature, there is no redemption.

I don't think there is any such life out there, but that's because of my view of creation


Your view and mine are based on what the Church teaches.

Everything happened once in one place ergo no aliens.

Edited by Andreas Moran, 28 January 2008 - 01:51 PM.





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