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Is Chloe venerated as a saint?


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#1 Max Percy

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 12:32 AM

Does anyone know if Chloe of 1 Corinthians 1:11 is venerated as a saint, and if so, if there is an icon of her?

Thank-you

Max Percy

#2 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 15 September 2007 - 03:37 PM

Does anyone know if Chloe of 1 Corinthians 1:11 is venerated as a saint, and if so, if there is an icon of her?

Thank-you

Max Percy


I knew an Orthodox priest whose daughter was Chloe. I also recall coming across the name in the lives of the saints.

More than this I cannot remember though right now. Hopefully others can help out here.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#3 Michael Stickles

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 04:16 PM

A Greek Orthodox namedays page lists the name Chloe with a feast day of February 18, but says the celebration date is different each year. I think that means the feast date is tied to the Paschal calendar, and so occurs on Cheesefare Sunday (the dates on the site looked to be 2007, new calendar).

I also saw a couple mentions of Orthodox children baptized with the name Chloe, but found no mention anywhere of exactly which saint(s) had that name.

If the feast date for Chloe is indeed Cheesefare Sunday, or the Sunday of Forgiveness, that would fit with it being the Chloe mentioned by Paul. According to the goarch.org website:

The Sunday of Forgiveness, the last of the preparatory Sundays before Great Lent, has two themes: it commemorates Adam’s expulsion from Paradise, and it accentuates our need for forgiveness. ...

The second theme, that of forgiveness, is emphasized in the Gospel reading for this Sunday (Matthew 6:14-21) and in the special ceremony of mutual forgiveness at the end of the Vespers on Sunday evening. Before we enter the Lenten fast, we are reminded that there can be no true fast, no genuine repentance, no reconciliation with God, unless we are at the same time reconciled with one another. A fast without mutual love is the fast of demons. We do not travel the road of Lent as isolated individuals but as members of a family. (emphasis mine)


Since Chloe's people were bringing the factions and divisiveness at Corinth into the open that they might be healed and reconciliation take place, it would fit the theme of the day. But that's speculation on my part; I just don't know for sure.

In Christ,
Mike

#4 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 17 September 2007 - 08:47 PM

Dear Mike,

You wrote:

A Greek Orthodox namedays page lists the name Chloe with a feast day of February 18, but says the celebration date is different each year. I think that means the feast date is tied to the Paschal calendar, and so occurs on Cheesefare Sunday (the dates on the site looked to be 2007, new calendar).

If the feast date for Chloe is indeed Cheesefare Sunday, or the Sunday of Forgiveness, that would fit with it being the Chloe mentioned by Paul. According to the goarch.org website:


There are no saints commemorated specifically on Cheesfare or Forgiveness Sunday (ie whose feast day would always fall on this Sunday regardless of its date on the Calendar). It's just that for this particular year of 2007 Forgiveness Sunday fell on Feb 18.

Since Pascha is on a different cycle than the Menaion cycle (the cycle whereby daily feast days according to the monthly calendar are followed) the two match in different ways each liturgical year.

Thus Forgiveness Sunday which follows the Paschal cycle was on Feb 18 this year. But next year it will be on a different monthly date; as it happens March 9.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#5 Michael Stickles

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 01:08 AM

Hmmm... then what other system would cause a saint's feast day to change days from one year to the next? I didn't see any explanation on the name days site, and the only thing I could think of was the Paschal cycle.

The listing looked like this:

CHLOE (*) (Chloe) 18 February


With the (*) footnote saying:

where (*) = nameday that has a different celebration date each year


- Mike

#6 Effie Ganatsios

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:33 AM

Mike, each year St. Mark and St. George - my brother-in-law and my son's namedays - are celebrated on different days according to the Paschal date. If they fall before Easter then they are celebrated a couple of days later. Perhaps this is also valid for St. Chloe. If Feb. 18 falls in the 40 day fasting period, perhaps it is also celebrated after Easter.

Effie

#7 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 03:19 PM

Mike wrote:

Hmmm... then what other system would cause a saint's feast day to change days from one year to the next? I didn't see any explanation on the name days site, and the only thing I could think of was the Paschal cycle.

The listing looked like this:



With the (*) footnote saying:



- Mike


The feastdays of saints remain the same every year. For example the feast day of the Archangel Michael and all the Bodiless Powers will always be celebrated on November 8.

Certain saints however are also celebrated on the Paschal cycle. For example St Gregory Palamas on the 2nd Sunday of Great Lent, St John Climacos on the 4th Sunday of Great Lent and then St Mary of Egypt on the 5th Sunday. Then the Myrrhbearing Women are commemorated two Sundays after Pascha & the Samaritan Woman four Sundays after. These Sundays however are more thematic in purpose than strictly speaking feastdays of the saints involved. Although in modern practice many people do consider these days their other namesday after the main feastday on the menaion calendar (ie each of these saints also has a day on the menaion calendar when they are celebrated).

The only exception to this is during Bright Week (the week after Pascha) where the Holy New-martyrs Raphael, Nicholas & Irene are celebrated on Bright Tuesday. Similarly local saints of the Church are celebrated on the 2nd & 3rd Sundays after Pentecost. All of these commemorations really can be considered their main feast day.

As for Chloe I am afraid that is a mystery to me. I have never heard of her name come up in this connection before. Unless shown conclusively I would doubt she is connected to the Sunday before Great Lent begins. Thematically it doesn't fit as all of the Sundays before Lent are given over to specific repentant/ preparatory themes with no mention of specific saints.

Also I could not find her name on any of my liturgical calendars nor on the Greek Archdiocese site even on the Menaion cycle. (except for the site linked to which doesn't cite its sources for considering her a saint nor for the day of commemoration).

The only other sources I can think of is if someone has a full Byzantine calendar of saints they can have a look at; or the St Herman of Alaska Brotherhood calendar which is about the fullest calendar I know if in English. (I don't have that version available).

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#8 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 03:36 PM

Mike, each year St. Mark and St. George - my brother-in-law and my son's namedays - are celebrated on different days according to the Paschal date. If they fall before Easter then they are celebrated a couple of days later. Perhaps this is also valid for St. Chloe. If Feb. 18 falls in the 40 day fasting period, perhaps it is also celebrated after Easter.

Effie


A shift in the days of their celebration would occur only if their feastdays were to fall during Passion Week. In this case the celebration itself would be transferred to Bright Week. The reason for this is that due to the festive nature of the services for these saints the typikon considers it unsuitable to serve their feasts during the sober time of Passion Week.

Normally however most of the time due to the late date of their feastdays (St George- April 23; St Mark- April 25) their celebration would occur after Pascha anyway.

Note that this shift in celebration doesn't actually change the feast days of these particular saints. It only affects when the service for these saints are served.

As for poor Chloe- as I said above I can find no trace of her so far as a saint nor as a day on the Calendar.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#9 Michael Stickles

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:17 PM

I'm beginning to think you need the equivalent of a Master's Degree in Theology just to keep track of half of the Orthodox calendar (and a Doctorate to keep track of the rest of it).

Mike

#10 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 04:36 PM

I'm beginning to think you need the equivalent of a Master's Degree in Theology just to keep track of half of the Orthodox calendar (and a Doctorate to keep track of the rest of it).

Mike


The principle is- the only way to understand the life of Church is through actively living it.

As I've told my people many times- there's no cheating possible on this one.

:)

#11 Michael Stickles

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Posted 18 September 2007 - 05:27 PM

As I've told my people many times- there's no cheating possible on this one.


You mean I can't look over anyone's shoulder? Rats.

Ah well, makes me thankful that my name-saint has a fixed celebration date and easily found descriptions.

In Christ,
Mike

#12 Effie Ganatsios

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 04:32 PM

The principle is- the only way to understand the life of Church is through actively living it.

As I've told my people many times- there's no cheating possible on this one.

:)


Exactly. You consult your menologion but it's by taking part in church life that you gradually get accustomed to the calendar.

#13 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 09:49 PM

Mike wrote:


Now, Saint Chloe's celebration day (February 18) is listed on the namedays website as one which can change from year to year. But it can't fall during Passion Week, since Pascha can't occur that early. It can, however, fall during the first week of Great Lent, which I believe is the most strict fasting time. So, is the first week of Great Lent treated similarly to Passion Week as far as transferring celebrations?


The saints are commemorated as usual during the 1st Week of Great Lent. I'm not sure, but I suspect a mistake on the website about Chloe, and a day when she could be commemorated; and not least the idea that saints' days change from year to year which is a misunderstanding of basic liturgics. That's why I think the problem comes from the provenance of the site.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#14 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 19 September 2007 - 10:32 PM

Further points concerning the website's claims that Chloe's day changes from year to year.

That would be completely contingent on her having a service in the Menaion. ie The only reason a saints' day of commemoration is ever changed is for a liturgical reason, not just that it is their day on the calendar.

But for the latter to apply assumes the saint is of the higher rank; ie such as St George or St Mark. (Saints of 'normal' rank never change their day of commemoration.)

Chloe, even if it can be positively discovered that the Church considers there is such a saint, hardly would be considered in that category.

Again, I suspect the website is off the mark in a big way.

#15 Michael Stickles

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 01:07 AM

Again, I suspect the website is off the mark in a big way.


Thanks -- that makes more sense than any of the attempts at rationalizing it I could come up with.

Mike

#16 Paul Cowan

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 03:53 AM

Again, I suspect the website is off the mark in a big way.


WHAT?!! You mean I am not supposed to believe everything I read?

#17 M.C. Steenberg

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 09:34 AM

WHAT?!! You mean I am not supposed to believe everything I read?


A rule of thumb that I heard sometime long ago and of which I can't remember the source, but which has served me well: 'Believe half of what you see, none of what you hear'. Replace 'hear' with 'read', and it still just works.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

#18 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 12:32 PM

When I examined the site in more detail I discovered major mistakes just on one page. From the look of the site there appears to have been a good intention behind it but with insufficient liturgical understanding.

I'm still curious if Chloe is considered to be a saint of the Church though.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#19 Michael Stickles

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Posted 20 September 2007 - 12:55 PM

A rule of thumb that I heard sometime long ago and of which I can't remember the source, but which has served me well: 'Believe half of what you see, none of what you hear'. Replace 'hear' with 'read', and it still just works.


I've seen that one attributed to many different people, but most often to Benjamin Franklin. I also saw Mark Twain's version given as "Believe all of what you see, half of what you read, and none of what you hear" (which seems a little over-optimistic on the "seeing" part). My problem is usually figuring out which half of what I read to believe; as this experience showed, I don't always pick the right half :-P.

In Christ,
Mike

#20 Max Percy

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 02:31 AM

Thank-you Fr. Raphael for your efforts to locate Chloe as a saint

Max Percy




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