Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Animal death before the fall?


  • Please log in to reply
65 replies to this topic

Poll: Was animal (not human) death possible before the fall? (54 member(s) have cast votes)

Was animal (not human) death possible before the fall?

  1. No. (23 votes [42.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.59%

  2. Yes, but no animals actually died before the fall. (3 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  3. Yes, and some animals possibly did die before the fall. (7 votes [12.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.96%

  4. Yes, and some animals definitely did die before the fall. (21 votes [38.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.89%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 M. Partyka

M. Partyka

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 345 posts

Posted 23 January 2008 - 04:34 PM

Curious to see everyone's opinions. Feel free to explain why you vote as you do. Especially interested in priests' perspectives.

#2 Robert Hegwood

Robert Hegwood

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 297 posts

Posted 23 January 2008 - 06:09 PM

Curious to see everyone's opinions. Feel free to explain why you vote as you do. Especially interested in priests' perspectives.



The reply I would choose is not offered as an option. I asked my first priest about creation before the fall...death, predation, etc. and he said that that fall was more than just a pothole on the road of linear history (my loose paraphrase) rather the fall was a cosmic event that may well have had reverberations both forward and backward in time...that the world as it was and as it could have been was changed when man admitted death into the garden. So the choices of our first parents got knit into creation from the start....or something like that.

#3 Father Serafim

Father Serafim

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 69 posts

Posted 23 January 2008 - 06:56 PM

The reply I would choose is not offered as an option. I asked my first priest about creation before the fall...death, predation, etc. and he said that that fall was more than just a pothole on the road of linear history (my loose paraphrase) rather the fall was a cosmic event that may well have had reverberations both forward and backward in time...that the world as it was and as it could have been was changed when man admitted death into the garden. So the choices of our first parents got knit into creation from the start....or something like that.


And God saw that its was good. He did not create death as the evolutionist and creationists might have us believe.

#4 M. Partyka

M. Partyka

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 345 posts

Posted 23 January 2008 - 08:01 PM

Robert,

Good point. I had forgotten that particular line of speculation, though I did read about it once in an essay by Dr. Alexander Kalomiros.

Fr. Seraphim,

I'm sorry, but were you agreeing or disagreeing with the opinion offered by Robert's priest (i.e., that God took the perfect creation and recreated the whole timeline after the fall with death woven into creation)?

#5 Matthew Namee

Matthew Namee

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 152 posts

Posted 23 January 2008 - 08:52 PM

I think that there is a huge difference between what we know of as death, namely human death, and the physiological expiration of non-human life forms (e.g. animals). Human death involves the separation of the soul from the body, and this was never supposed to happen. Animal death, like cell death, involves the death of a creature which was not created to participate in communion with God, to be deified. A phenomenal article which discusses both this issue and the whole question of evolution in general was written by Deacon Andrey Kuraev and can be found here:

http://www.fatherale...tion_kuraev.htm

#6 Yuri Zharikov

Yuri Zharikov

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts

Posted 24 January 2008 - 02:37 AM

I think that there is a huge difference between what we know of as death, namely human death, and the physiological expiration of non-human life forms (e.g. animals). Human death involves the separation of the soul from the body, and this was never supposed to happen. Animal death, like cell death, involves the death of a creature which was not created to participate in communion with God, to be deified. A phenomenal article which discusses both this issue and the whole question of evolution in general was written by Deacon Andrey Kuraev and can be found here:

http://www.fatherale...tion_kuraev.htm


Both Bishop Alexander (Mileant) of blessed memory and Deacon A. Kuraev are evolutionists... i.e. they believe in cosmic/biological evolution and interpret the Bible from this philosophical viewpoint. A little while ago Fr. Andrey published a booklet "Can an Orthodox Christian be an evolutionist". This book was analysed and completely demolished from the dogmatic, biblical and patristic points of view by Fr. Konsantin Befeev (I have Russian text of the critique if somebody would care to see it). Vladyko Alexandr published a similar work on his web-site (http://www.fatherale...a_mileant_e.htm) in Russian and English with a similar conclusion - yes, an Orthodox Christian can be an evolutionist. Like Fr. Andrey's, his work does not stand to even most superficial scrutiny. Both authors do not seem to understand the difference between science and philosophy.

In the Lord,
Yura

P.S. My answer to the poll is: For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope. (rom 8:20)

#7 John Craford

John Craford

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 44 posts
  • Guest from Another Religious Tradition

Posted 24 January 2008 - 09:13 PM

About the book links Matthew Namee and Yuri Zharikov posted: do the books you posted show that evolution is correct and death of animals before the fall are true or I got it wrong? Please explain to me. Thank you and forgive my stupidity.

#8 Yuri Zharikov

Yuri Zharikov

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts

Posted 25 January 2008 - 12:44 AM

About the book links Matthew Namee and Yuri Zharikov posted: do the books you posted show that evolution is correct and death of animals before the fall are true or I got it wrong? Please explain to me. Thank you and forgive my stupidity.


Both Bishop Alexander (Mileant) and Deacon A. Kuraev teach this. God created heaven and earth and ordered the creation to evolve. 5 billion years later a monkey appeared. God took the monkey and breathed into it His Spirit. Adam was created.
They do not show that evolution is correct, they believe it happened, and therefore billions of deaths would have occurred before "creation" of Adam from a monkey.

In the Lord,
Yura

#9 Father David Moser

Father David Moser

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 3,581 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Cleric

Posted 25 January 2008 - 01:08 AM

Both Bishop Alexander (Mileant) and Deacon A. Kuraev teach this. God created heaven and earth and ordered the creation to evolve.


Yes, Bp Alexander did teach something similar to that (I don't knoow about Kuraev), however, none of his fellow bishops shared his opinion and neither did the vast majority of lower clergy in the Russian Church Abroad. There was even a petition to Synod to request that he withdraw his teaching on this topic, however, before anything could be done, Bp Alexander reposed and so any action was moot.

As for the original question -the answer is that we can't know (and it doesn't really matter anyway). At the fall, a massive (I think the word "cosmic" has been used) change occurred in Creation thus making our observations of the effects/artifacts of prehistory unreliable prior to that point. We just don't know what physical laws did or did not apply prior to the fall. We do know that as a result of the fall, man and all of creation became subject to corruption - but what it was before we don't know.

Fr David Moser

#10 M. Partyka

M. Partyka

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 345 posts

Posted 25 January 2008 - 04:42 AM

We just don't know what physical laws did or did not apply prior to the fall. We do know that as a result of the fall, man and all of creation became subject to corruption - but what it was before we don't know.

Fr. David,

To say, "After the fall, creation became subject to corruption," necessarily implies, "Before the fall, creation was not subject to corruption," but if we cannot know what conditions were like before the fall, how do we know what "subject to corruption" actually means?

#11 Father David Moser

Father David Moser

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 3,581 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Cleric

Posted 25 January 2008 - 03:13 PM

Fr. David,

To say, "After the fall, creation became subject to corruption," necessarily implies, "Before the fall, creation was not subject to corruption," but if we cannot know what conditions were like before the fall, how do we know what "subject to corruption" actually means?


First - logically the first statementd does NOT necessarily imply the other. Just because a condition existed after the fall does not mean that it did not exist before the fall.

Second - Despite the logical fallacy, the writings and experience of the saints tell us that before the fall, mankind (but not all of creation I think) was not subject to corruption. And your question simply points out what I said before - we cannot know.

Fr David Moser

#12 M.C. Steenberg

M.C. Steenberg

    Former Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,843 posts

Posted 31 January 2008 - 09:47 PM

Dear all,

Posts in this thread from the past few days, which are not on the topic of the thread but on evolutionary theory, have been moved to a more appropriate thread so as to allow this discussion to remain on its stated theme.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

#13 M. Partyka

M. Partyka

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 345 posts

Posted 31 January 2008 - 11:05 PM

Could one of the moderators please go ahead and lock down this thread? (I'm the original poster.) I think it's run its course, and Yuri and I can continue his and my discussion either in the "Creation and evolutionary theory" thread or through PMs. Thanks!

#14 M.C. Steenberg

M.C. Steenberg

    Former Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 2,843 posts

Posted 04 February 2008 - 11:33 PM

Could one of the moderators please go ahead and lock down this thread? (I'm the original poster.) I think it's run its course, and Yuri and I can continue his and my discussion either in the "Creation and evolutionary theory" thread or through PMs. Thanks!


We don't normally close threads unless there's a particular reason. While discussion on the topic here may abate for a time, it may strike up interest again later - so we like to keep the doors open.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

#15 Paul Cowan

Paul Cowan

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,064 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 26 February 2008 - 09:08 PM

We don't normally close threads unless there's a particular reason. While discussion on the topic here may abate for a time, it may strike up interest again later - so we like to keep the doors open.

INXC, Dcn Matthew


Gremlins acting up again. This post on Feb 4 popped up again today. ^;^

#16 Victor Mihailoff

Victor Mihailoff

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 81 posts

Posted 27 February 2008 - 11:12 AM

Curious to see everyone's opinions. Feel free to explain why you vote as you do. Especially interested in priests' perspectives.


Animals did not die and could not die before the fall because it was the fall that brought death to Adam and Eve and animals followed suit because they and the world are linked to mankind. The fall changed the world and all of its inhabitants. Just as the Great Flood changed the world in such a way that scientists find it nearly impossible to prove there was a flood because the whole surface of the world we live in was formed in its current state by the Flood. It's like, "Not seeing the wood for the trees." We do not have experience of animals before the fall so it is a difficult concept to accept.

#17 David Naess

David Naess

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 93 posts

Posted 29 March 2008 - 01:10 AM

Unless there were some sudden and profound changes in animal anatomy and physiology with the fall of man, then the carnivors were carnivors, unable to survive on a 100% plant diet.

If they were merely scavengers instead of hunters before the fall, then animal death would have still been necessary in order to have something to scavange.

Edited by David Naess, 29 March 2008 - 01:18 AM.
grammatical corrections


#18 Yuri Zharikov

Yuri Zharikov

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts

Posted 29 March 2008 - 04:42 AM

Unless there were some sudden and profound changes in animal anatomy and physiology with the fall of man, then the carnivors were carnivors, unable to survive on a 100% plant diet.

If they were merely scavengers instead of hunters before the fall, then animal death would have still been necessary in order to have something to scavange.


It is really quite simple and it was/will be so that in God's creation there is complete harmony in the begining: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so (Gen 1:30).

and complete harmony in the end: The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD (Is. 65:25).

#19 David Naess

David Naess

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 93 posts

Posted 29 March 2008 - 04:50 PM

It is really quite simple and it was/will be so that in God's creation there is complete harmony in the begining: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so (Gen 1:30).

and complete harmony in the end: The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD (Is. 65:25).


Quoting scripture does not make it "really quite simple"...

You are talking about what,
I am talking about how.

e.g.; The dental structure, the digestive tracts, etc.

This is the age old, but not necessarily irreconcilable, difference between faith and science.

Perhaps there were "some sudden and profound changes in animal anatomy and physiology with the fall of man" we just don't know. That's one reason why I converted to Orthodoxy... "I don't know" is a valid answer!

Edited by David Naess, 29 March 2008 - 05:03 PM.
add the last paragraph


#20 Yuri Zharikov

Yuri Zharikov

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts

Posted 29 March 2008 - 05:27 PM

Quoting scripture does not make it "really quite simple"...

You are talking about what,
I am talking about how.

e.g.; The dental structure, the digestive tracts, etc.

This is the age old, but not necessarily irreconcilable, difference between faith and science.

Perhaps there were "some sudden and profound changes in animal anatomy and physiology with the fall of man" we just don't know. That's one reason why I converted to Orthodoxy... "I don't know" is a valid answer!


Then what is the point in bringing something up if there is obviously no rational and verifiable answer? What science's got to do with this?
What I posted meant exactly what you said - I don't know, but, not stopping on the 'I don't know', I believe that God made it so. For Him all this is quite simple, and because I could not fathom His Wisdom nor could I be His advisor, I find it on the one hand an exercise in futility to be poking in His mighty and wondrous works and on the other quite easy to accept on faith that things were and will be as He said.

Edited by Yuri Zharikov, 30 March 2008 - 12:17 AM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users