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Animal death before the fall?


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Poll: Was animal (not human) death possible before the fall? (54 member(s) have cast votes)

Was animal (not human) death possible before the fall?

  1. No. (23 votes [42.59%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.59%

  2. Yes, but no animals actually died before the fall. (3 votes [5.56%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.56%

  3. Yes, and some animals possibly did die before the fall. (7 votes [12.96%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.96%

  4. Yes, and some animals definitely did die before the fall. (21 votes [38.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.89%

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#61 Evan

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Posted 23 May 2010 - 07:59 PM

Perhaps this passage from St. Gregory of Nyssa's "Life of Moses" could guide our inquiry here. Or perhaps not.

From "The Wealth of Egypt"

"Our guide in virtue commands someone who 'borrows' from wealthy Egyptians to receive such things as moral and natural philosophy, geometry, astronomy, dialectic, and whatever else is sought by those outside the Church, since these things will be useful when in time the divine sanctuary of mystery must be beautified with the riches of reason."

Then again, St. Gregory warns of taking too many of these spoils, and urges discernment.

From "The Burning Bush" (discussing the circumcision of Moses's son)

"Pagan philosophy says that the soul is immortal. This is a pious offspring. But it also says that souls pass from bodies to bodies and are changed from a rational to an irrational nature. This is a fleshy and alien foreskin."

In Christ,
Evan

#62 William Thompson

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Posted 29 May 2010 - 11:30 PM

As most people here might already know, Fr. Hopko has a series of podcasts on the Darwinian Revolution at Ancient Faith Radio; they are part of his "Speaking the Truth in Love" podcasts.

#63 Kosta

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 01:14 AM

What were not focusing on in the OP are the Fathers understanding of Paradise. Within Eden there was no violent death. After the transgression Adam and Eve was cast out of Paradise and Eden was shut up. Christ who was without sin, went to a VOLUNTARY and Violent death. The Theotokos on the other hand succumbed to a natural death due to the fall of Adam. Christ who was without sin was exempt from natural death, but not a violent one, which Eden would have shielded him from. As the OT says in that day the lamb will lay down with the lion, the day when creation is transfigured back to its original state.

A better question is , whats the difference between Eden(earthly paradise) and the place where Adam settled after his eviction (the earth we know) due to his transgression?

#64 Jesse Dominick

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Posted 30 May 2010 - 02:16 AM

many Fathers taught that the entire creation, and not only the Garden, was paradisiacal.

#65 Yolanda

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Posted 31 May 2010 - 09:44 AM

Death is a disease from sin, but it to stop man from committing crime, man can't crime forever, so lord allowed death. We don't know the "state" of animal before the fall, but we know humans have the responsibility in the world, and we should love animal, all creation loves life, not only human, lord is life.

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life;(John11:25)
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life;(John14:6)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.(Revelation21:1-4)

#66 Steven Roberts

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 10:58 PM

Well, while God did not "create death" as Wisdom says, He created them mortal as with humans,except we were given Grace. and the key part of mortality is that things die. See On the incarnation by St. Athanasius




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