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Creation and evolutionary theory, I

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#401 Rick James York

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 02:28 AM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'Rick James York' is identical to members 'Rostislav' and 'John M.' The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

Dear Rick,

I am afraid we can't do that. Talking outside the topic as I have been educated on will only have the post deleted and a request to direct nontopic discussions to a PM. Mr. Partyka has his opinions on this topic as do the rest of the members reading. Just because he is the only one sharing his opinion on this forum does make it ok to discuss him as a third person. (as I am now doing) sorry. Paul


Point acknowledged. You have more forum experience than I do.

My motive was to prevent readers who are as yet undecided about this topic and issue from being misled through replies that were not replying to the posts they partially quoted but were implying to some other content to the post that was not there at all.

So I asked others (hopefully the undecided readers especially included) to read the previous posts because they are not always easy to find when only fragments are quoted and inaccurately commented upon.

I'm afraid I've just made things more confusing I guess. I am truly sorry if that is the case.

James

Edited by Administrator, 10 June 2008 - 09:47 AM.
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#402 Paul Cowan

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:09 AM

Rick,

I will PM you. I am not a moderator. I only offered my poor opinion.

#403 Paul Cowan

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:15 AM

Dear Rick,

I am afraid we can't do that. Talking outside the topic as I have been educated on will only have the post deleted and a request to direct nontopic discussions to a PM. Mr. Partyka has his opinions on this topic as do the rest of the members reading. Just because he is the only one sharing his opinion on this forum does make it ok to discuss him as a third person. (as I am now doing) sorry.

My only question for this particular thread is when will it end? Have we all not gone around the block a couple of times and found ourselves right back where we started. Evolutionists and creationists will NEVER be able to reconcile. Only a significant life changing experience can change someone's hard held beliefs. Mr. Partyka has his, the rest of us believe contrary. If I had a wish it is that we could move on to something more productive. Banging heads against a brick wall is silly.

Paul


On advice from a friend, here is an addendum to the above post.

I did not mean to make it sound as the rest of the forum members consider Mr. Partyka's point of view is wrong or that no one else on the forum has his point of view. I meant it more to the point that those that have my beliefs ( of which I will keep to myself from now on) do not subscribe to his philosophy. My apologies to you Mr. Partyka. Please forgive my butting into this thread.

#404 John M.

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:15 AM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'John M.' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'Rostislav'. The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

To any catechumens reading this thread. The Orthodox Church is now practicing the fast and other spiritual works of great lent to prepare for the greatest feast of our faith, Pascha.

It is good that people are purchasing books on the scientific side of the topic of this thread so as to better contribute. But I strongly urge that any catechumens read Orthodox spiritual books more so during the great lent like experienced Orthodox members of the Church do.

The Holy Spirit of God provides additional help to all who partake in whatever way they can, and that includes spiritual reading.

I might also add that catechumens can benefit greatly by requesting Orthodox members to pray for them.

It is strongly advisable for them to also ask their priest for advice and recommendations about which books to read at this time of the Orthodox Calendar year.

With Christ, John

Edited by Administrator, 10 June 2008 - 08:55 AM.
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#405 Rick James York

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 06:22 AM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'Rick James York' is identical to members 'Rostislav' and 'John M.' The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

Dear members of this thread. Here are some informative websites and webpages that deal with creation verses evolution.

Where did Cain find his wife? http://www.drdino.co...cles.php?spec=3

Common questions answered http://www.drdino.co...les.php?spec=21

Creation Isn’t Science http://www.drdino.co...les.php?spec=55

Things that make evolutionists look silly http://www.drdino.co...es.php?spec=102

Was there death before Adam sinned? http://www.drdino.com/articles.php?spec=49[/size]

Creation Science evangelism http://www.drdino.com/articles.php

I hope they are found to be useful and interesting, James.

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#406 Misha

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:14 AM

I ,humbly ,think that we ,as orthodox christians, don't need to adopt Bible's interpretations from non patristic sources.
The protestant or latin view of creation,sin,death and salvation has not many things in common with our Church's and our saints' experience.

#407 John M.

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 12:27 PM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'John M.' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'Rostislav'. The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

Dear members of this thread. Here are some informative websites and webpages that deal with creation verses evolution.James.


Thank you James!

I read through these website articles and find them not contradicting the Orthodox teachings in their main points. Please don't stop contributing because two others posted criticisms against your efforts in a single day. Those who defend God's truth often become targets.

Thank you also for contributing so many quotes from the bible and the Orthodox saints in many of your other posts.

I find these posts much more helpful than personal opinions. It must be quite an effort to search for and provide all of those quotes for the benefit of your Orthodox brothers and sisters.

With gratitude, John

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#408 Rick James York

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:32 PM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'Rick James York' is identical to members 'Rostislav' and 'John M.' The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

Thank you John.

Worse still has been the clearly dishonest response on the part of many Fundamentalist Christians, not least of which is the fraudulent "scientific creationism," which is enough to make many educated people leery of Christianity.

Here +Lazar betrays the extent of his captivity to the dogmatism that so insidiously plagues Evolutionist academia. For him, Evolutionism is neutral science - he assumes that, upon examination of a certain body of evidence, the only reasonable response is to assert Evolutionism. Any attempt to show that the body of data does not necessitate the conclusion that Darwin, Teilhard, Dobzhansky, and Puhalo have reached is categorically dismissed as "Fundamentalist" and "fraudulent". [9] So much for open-mindedness and critical analysis. For Archbishop Lazar, it is as Teilhard de Chardin pontificated: “Evolution is much more than a theory – it is a general postulate to which all theories, all systems henceforth must bow and which they must satisfy in order to be thinkable and true. Evolution is a light which illumines all facts, a trajectory which all lines of thought must follow”.

Archbishop Lazar, like all so-called Theistic Evolutionists who try to make a hybrid of Darwinian Humanism and Christianity, is found to be entrapped by Evolutionist dogmatism; he takes his stand against all the many generations of Christians who believe the revelation of God in Scripture and Tradition, having cut an untenable deal with those who say to Christ "In place of your Gospel we discovered biology and zoology. And now we know that we are not descended from You and Your heavenly Father, but from orangutans and gorillas, that is to say, apes. And we are perfectly able to become gods because we do not recognize any other god than ourselves." [10]

Thus we must in all honesty assert that the process of de-Christianisation was really inaugurated by Christian leaders and apologists.

The above is an extract which is a fraction of the text contained on the following Orthodox webpage:

http://razilazenje.b...y-and-post.html

The following is a link to a letter written by Fr Seraphim Rose on the topic of evolution. He speaks very fairly and explains that evolution can neither be proved nor disproved.

He quotes many saints. It is good reading for both sides of the debate and is in my opinion definitive.

After reading this, some people will need no more to read on the subject of "creation and evolutionary theory".

http://www.orthodoxi..._kalomiros.aspx

I hope this will be helpful and interesting, James

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#409 M. Partyka

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:42 PM

After stating that you would give the proof by quoting your book, you did not, you did the same as always....Again: Where is your evidence?

I asked whether it would make a difference if I did quote from the book. You replied that you wouldn't consider what I quoted "evidence" because it didn't come from Scripture or the Fathers. As nobody else has asked about it, I figured, "What's the point?" Better for me to spend the time finishing the first book (which I did last night) and start reading the next one (which I did this morning).

#410 RichardWorthington

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 03:47 PM

Sorry to barge in, but I have written down some thoughts on such issues: Evolution and the baptism of Christ

I was hoping that it might cause the eternal tennis match between ID-ers and Evol-ers to end in a happy draw.

Richard
:)

#411 Vasile Dionisie

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:16 PM

I don't want to bother you with stories... but at a certain point in my life I did wish to feel with my soul , see with my eyes , understand with my mind..and I asked God all theese.
And from that moment on ,my life changed! In the good way.
So I really believe that if one is eager to find something-the truth-one will definitely get it.Cause search and you will find out , demand and you will receive...
Forgive me!
Vasile Dionisie

#412 Vasile Dionisie

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Posted 08 April 2008 - 09:27 PM

And if we have to go for "battle" , we will gladly "figth".
But the way of fighting , in our days , I think , is to pray;and the power of example might be the best. Father Cleopa Ilie use to say:"you have to have patience;and when you feel like loosing the patience , then be patient again; and when you will loose the patience , PATIENCE PATIENCE PATIENCE..." This is the key: patience for the kingdom of God.
Forgive me!
Vasile Dionisie

#413 Father David Moser

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 12:06 AM

This topic has gone for 400+ posts now and is not the only thread in which this subject is being currently discussed. As some have observed (and I concur) the discussion here has become fairly fruitless and thus it is time to give it a rest. This thread will be closed to further discussion for at least he next few days. I would suggest that those interested in continuing the topic will initiate a new thread in a more focused manner and that discussion will continue on the topic or topics raised here. I would like to remind everyone that it is a good thing to ask questions, to challenge the assumptions that we make about the interpretation of scripture or the writings of the fathers. Much of the what the fathers wrote was based on the knowledge of their day and so it can be applied, but not literally to the present knowledge base. The Genesis account of the origins of the world and mankind is not universally acknowledge as "literal" and so any appeal to the "literalness" of Genesis should be backed up as should any challenge to that proposition. We can discuss scientific evidence, however, again, I suggest that it is done so in a patristic context. One of the reasons that this thread has bogged down is that no one is thinking and many people seem to be just appealing to "what everyone knows" as evidence. This is not sufficient. If you are going to take a position about the interpretation of scientific observations, please support your view of that through the attitude of the fathers to the science known at their time. Please, do not be lazy in your discussions, but be diligent.

For the moment, this thread will be closed. It may re-open in the future, however, now I suggest that everyone take a deep breath, pray, go to Church and say the canon of St Andrew tomorrow evening, and come back to this discussion more focused and renewed in mind and spirit.

Fr David Moser




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