Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

'Born gay'?

Sexuality

  • Please log in to reply
480 replies to this topic

Poll: Did God fashion homosexuals to be gay in the womb? Are homosexuals born gay? (164 member(s) have cast votes)

Did God fashion homosexuals to be gay in the womb? Are homosexuals born gay?

  1. Yes (21 votes [12.80%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.80%

  2. No (98 votes [59.76%])

    Percentage of vote: 59.76%

  3. Maybe so (30 votes [18.29%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.29%

  4. Other (please post) (15 votes [9.15%])

    Percentage of vote: 9.15%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 Justin Farr

Justin Farr

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 96 posts

Posted 02 February 2008 - 04:46 AM

Are homosexuals born gay? Did God create them in the womb to be gay?

#2 Paul Cowan

Paul Cowan

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,064 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 02 February 2008 - 05:11 AM

In short, no. God made us male and female. We are to leave our mother and father and to cleave to one another and become one flesh. It is only because of the Fall of mankind and our sinfullness that the homosexual lifestyle has flourished. Consider Sodom and Gemorrah. The men were so full of sin they did not even want to rape Lot's virgin daughters.

There is a cure for sin. That is prayer and fasting as Christ said; " this kind only comes out by prayer and fasting." That is why the disciples were not able because up until that point, they were not fasting.

No one is born gay. It is a learned behavior. External influences whether abuse or media or demonic temptation stoke the flame of this sin within. It may be more difficult for some to overcome than others, but with God all things are possible.

Paul

#3 Aaron Wake

Aaron Wake

    Junior Poster

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 13 posts

Posted 02 February 2008 - 05:56 AM

I believe that some people are more likely than others to have feelings and attractions to the same sex. Much like some people are more likely to abuse alcohol than others who can just drink socially. We all have vices and this is a terrible one to have I would imagine. But like the poster before me said, all things are possible with God. But I would absolutely say no. We are not born gay. It is absolutely not scriptural. It contradicts it in fact.

#4 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 02 February 2008 - 10:34 AM

Such now is the nature of our society that our views as Orthodox Christians can scarcely be voiced. In England, you could be accused of harassment in your workplace, and you could end up being prosecuted. It's worthwhile remembering that a general Google search can show up results that include posts from this forum.

#5 Justin Farr

Justin Farr

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 96 posts

Posted 02 February 2008 - 04:44 PM

Interesting posts so far.

Any Scripture or fathers/mothers of the Church would be helpful as well.

I look forward to more polling and hopefully posts. :)

I voted yes, because I do not believe being gay is a sin but acting on it is. And with us living in a fallen world, born with diseases and other abnormalities, it is quite possible someone can be born gay (or it could be influenced paternally, etc.).

#6 Jim McQuiggin

Jim McQuiggin

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 55 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 02 February 2008 - 05:52 PM

I had to vote "Other" because I believe the poll is asking two very different questions. To the first, I would answer "No", to the second, "Maybe".

In Psalm 50/51 we read, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." This does not mean that a man (generic) is born with sin, or guilty in any way. But it does acknowledge the sinfulness of one's mother and of humanity in general. Jesus acquired his humanity from the All Pure Virgin, but the rest of us did not. Within the womb abnormalities of all sorts occur. God does not create or fashion these or any other abnormalities. It is quite reasonable to believe that one's sexual orientation and drives may be damaged from the womb.

This is why in the verses that precede the above quoted that David begged for mercy and washing. He did so with joyful expectancy of receiving this cleansing.

All of us, not just gays, struggle with issues from the womb.

#7 Father Serafim

Father Serafim

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 69 posts

Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:10 PM

Homosexuality is acquired, not genetic as some modern thinkers would have us belief. Sodomy, effeminacy are condemned as sins by the Fathers (St John of the Ladder et al). When the Holy Psalmist says: and in sin did my mother conceive me - it means we are born with the taint of original sin (not guilt) but that does not imply being slaves to perversion at birth.

#8 Justin Farr

Justin Farr

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 96 posts

Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:21 PM

OK, I am confused. I thought the Orthodox position was being gay in and of itself is not a sin, and that it is possible to be born with it (among other ways to acquire it), but the only sinful part was acting on it, giving into it, etc.

So you are saying that a gay person is sinning just by their nature? Their very being is a sin?

#9 Paul Cowan

Paul Cowan

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,064 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 02 February 2008 - 08:55 PM

That's not what Father is saying. When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought sin unto us all. Sin is passed down now through the generations culminating in death. We have a sin nature. We can choose not to sin though. A person sins when acting on sinful thoughts. The nature of a person is not what causes sin, but what he does about his nature. Homosexuality is not a natural state of man. We are not born homosexual. It is in response to certain stimuli as we grow that it manifests itself. It can also be rooted out through prayer and fasting.

#10 Nina

Nina

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,149 posts

Posted 02 February 2008 - 09:08 PM

Yes, Father is right:

When the Holy Psalmist says: and in sin did my mother conceive me - it means we are born with the taint of original sin (not guilt) but that does not imply being slaves to perversion at birth.


Also we are baptized after we are born. But if we say a thief is so from the womb, is not true.

If you notice the prayer of the saints you will see that this is no different from other sins, and thus idolatry.


Martyr Terence and 40 others beheaded at Carthage

The Holy Martyr Terence and his companions suffered under the emperor Decius (249-251). The emperor issued an edict commanding all subjects to offer sacrifice to the pagan idols.

When the governor of Africa Fortunianus received this edict, he gathered the people into the city square, set out cruel instruments of torture and declared that everyone without exception had to offer the sacrifice to the idols.

Many, afraid of torture, complied. However, St Terence and forty other Christians bravely affirmed their faith in the Savior and ridiculed the idols. Fortunianus was amazed at their boldness and he asked how they as rational people, could confess as God, One Whom the Jews crucified as a malefactor.

St Terence answered that their belief was in the Savior, Who voluntarily endured death on the Cross and rose on the third day. Fortunianus saw that Terence inspired the others by his example, and so he ordered him to be isolated in prison with his three closest companions: Africanus, Maximus, and Pompeius. Fortunianus was determined to force the rest of the martyrs, including Zeno, Alexander and Theodore, to renounce Christ.

Neither threats nor terrible tortures could sway the holy martyrs. They burned them with red-hot iron, they poured vinegar on the wounds, they sprinkled on salt, and they raked them with iron claws. In spite of their sufferings, the saints did not weaken in their confession of Christ, and the Lord gave them strength.

Forunatian gave orders to lead the martyrs into the pagan temple, and once again he urged them to offer sacrifice to the idols. The valiant warriors of Christ cried out, "O Almighty God, Who once sent down fire on Sodom for its iniquity, destroy this impious temple of idolatry." The idols fell down with a crash, and then the temple lay in ruins. The enraged governor gave orders to execute them, and the martyrs, glorifying God, bowed their necks beneath the executioner's sword.

After the execution of the thirty-six martyrs, Fortunianus summoned Terence, Maximus, Africanus and Pompeius before him. He showed them the martyrs' bodies and again urged them to offer sacrifice to the idols. The martyrs refused. The governor put heavy chains on them, and gave orders to starve them to death. By night, an angel of the Lord removed the martyrs' chains and fed them.

In the morning, the guards found the saints cheerful and strong. Then Fortunianus ordered sorcerers and conjurers to carry snakes and all kinds of poisonous creatures into the prison. The guards looked into the cell through an opening in the ceiling and saw the martyrs unharmed, praying, and the snakes crawling at their feet. When the sorcerers opened the door of the prison cell, the snakes bit them. The furious Fortunianus gave orders to behead the holy martyrs. Christians took up their holy bodies and buried them with reverence outside the city.



#11 Owen Jones

Owen Jones

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,341 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 02 February 2008 - 09:52 PM

Homosexuality has always been around. It's pretty much like any other problem related to mental obssessions, whether it is caused by some childhood influences, or something someone is born with a particularly tendency toward. I don't really think that is the issue for us. The arguments being used by "gay" activists is that it cannot be a moral issue if someone is born that way. But this presupposes that one HAS to act on one's impulses. You can just as easily say that we are all born liars and murderers and adulterers. So?

#12 Yuri Zharikov

Yuri Zharikov

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts

Posted 02 February 2008 - 11:12 PM

Such now is the nature of our society that our views as Orthodox Christians can scarcely be voiced. In England, you could be accused of harassment in your workplace, and you could end up being prosecuted. It's worthwhile remembering that a general Google search can show up results that include posts from this forum.


I little while ago Patriarch Alexi said in front of the whole Council of Europe that homosexuality is a vice not different, say, from kleptomania. I think we should not worry too much if we say the same in the (semi)-privacy of this site.

In the Lord,
Yura

#13 Nina

Nina

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,149 posts

Posted 05 February 2008 - 02:52 AM

Since this thread deals somehow with nature, or nurture: I have heard that there are some TV characters for children that are "gay" and are created and used with the purpose to nurture children from a very young age with homosexuality. I do not know if this is true and I do not recall where I read, or heard it, but just wanted to know if this is true. Some characters said to be "gay" are Teletubies, Winnie the Pooh and his friends etc. Is this true? I would have probably dismissed this, however I have noticed the tendency of media lately to turn into "gay" everything that was not so in the past traditionally. For instance in the movie Shrek, the prince is so gay and so on.

#14 Olga

Olga

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2,821 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 05 February 2008 - 03:24 AM

Attemps to paint literary characters as homosexual long after they first appeared (such as Winnie-the-Pooh) is a symptom of postmodernist "deconstructionist" philosophies such as "critical literacy". Such approaches state that literature (which they call "text") can be "interpreted" from (take your pick) a Marxist, feminist, gender/gay etc perspective. Those who promote this "educational" approach do not distinguish between the established canon of literature, such as Shakespeare, Steinbeck, Donne, Garcia, Lessing, etc, and, say, a comic strip, a rap song, or Star Wars. To them, everything is a "text", that all "texts" have a "subtext", and all such "texts" are of equal value and "relevance". Cultural relativism gone completely mad.

This has led to the unedifying spectacle of the so-called "literacy wars" here in Australia, where (finally!!) the tide is turning against such arrant nonsense. I am eternally grateful that my primary and secondary education took place just before this disease took hold.

#15 Owen Jones

Owen Jones

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,341 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 05 February 2008 - 03:44 PM

btw, the term homosexual did not exist prior to the 18th century. Prior to that, everything was defined according to the act: i.e. sodomy. So one was a sodomite, but there was no such thing as a homosexual type.

#16 Kornelius

Kornelius

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 53 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 05 February 2008 - 04:21 PM

Are homosexuals born gay? Did God create them in the womb to be gay?


Homosexuality is a sin, and God is not the author of sin. If God would create people as gay, then it would follow that God is a hypocrite for condemning homosexuality. So, where does homosexuality originates?

Homosexuality and homosexual tendencies happen during the first three or four years of someone's life. It is caused by two things: 1. A very distant and domineering father (or no father at all to influence masculinity) and 2. a very possessive mother.

The child becomes very effeminate. As a result, what may be perceived as a paradox follows. Later in life, he is in constant pursuit of masculinity, and thinks erroneously that by going with another man he will find that lost masculinity.

It is very difficult to understand this paradox, but it is no different from the ancient tribes who would eat the heart of a deer to become faster. It is an ancient part of the brain that regulates all this feelings called the hypothalamus gland and it works in a very complicated way.

For a woman to have homosexual tendencies, she must be exposed to similar dysfunctonal parental behaviors during her childhood. The only difference is that this time the father figure is played by the mother and the father is very effiminate. Her feminine side is never properly validated. The reversal of this roles has disastrous effects upon children.

What is writen above is the research of many doctors, psychologists and scientists since the time of Freud. However, lately they want to portray homosexuality as either a choice or something that you are born with. This is no accident. It is a very anti-christian claim. It reverses the natural order of things as established by God. There is a secret cabal behind all this who use homosexuals as pawns to further this anti-christian agenda. They portray it in almost every movie, and tv series in a very positive light. Since most of us unfortunately receive our education and the perception of reality from popular culture, we are constantly shaped and conditioned to accept these sins as a glorious way of life. Repetition, repetition, repetition. Goebbels of the Third Reich said, "Repeat somethings for a long time and people will belive it." Well, I guess it works, since even us orthodox are spending time on a topic that should be obvious to all of us!

#17 Father David Moser

Father David Moser

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 3,581 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Cleric

Posted 05 February 2008 - 05:16 PM

Are homosexuals born gay? Did God create them in the womb to be gay?


Homosexuality is a sin, and God is not the author of sin. If God would create people as gay, then it would follow that God is a hypocrite for condemning homosexuality. So, where does homosexuality originates? ...


It is certainly possible that there may be a genetic predisposition towards homosexual tendencies. The problem with the question is that God does not create people in the womb - God created mankind, however a child in the womb is "created" by the communal action of the father and mother. But the father and mother, like all of us are fallen and so the "flaws" which are the result of corruption which is the aftermath of the fall are in us all. This genetic "flaw" then would be the result not of God's action, but rather of man's sin.

Even if there is a genetic predisposition towards homosexuality (being born gay) that in no way mandates that we act upon that predisposition. We are tempted by all kinds of desires which would lead us into sin and away from God. We have a choice whether or not we will allow any passion to master us. Homosexual tendencies (whatever those may be - it is a poorly defined concept) whether they are the result of nurture or nature still are subject to the choice of the person. We are not, after all, automatons or driven by fate or the slave of our instincts - we are the image and likeness of God. We have a free will, we can choose, we can submit to temptation or we can resist it. We can work out our salvation or slide into condemnation.

Our Lord Jesus Christ came into the world to seek and to save those who are lost, He came to heal the sick, He came to save sinners. We are all born into sin, we all are subject to corruption by nature, the glutton or the gossip is no less a sinner than the fornicator (be he hetero- or homo-sexual). There is no predestination to salvation or condemnation; the Gospel tells us that God is "the lover of all mankind and desires that all be saved and that none should be lost."

It does not matter if someone is born gay or a glutton or self-willed or egocentric or sick or healthy. God loves each of us an provides for each of us the path to salvation. "Come all ye that are weak and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest"

Fr David Moser

#18 Justin Farr

Justin Farr

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 96 posts

Posted 05 February 2008 - 05:45 PM

It is certainly possible that there may be a genetic predisposition towards homosexual tendencies. The problem with the question is that God does not create people in the womb - God created mankind, however a child in the womb is "created" by the communal action of the father and mother.


Oh. I worded my question the way I did because I believed it was the Orthodox belief that God creates us in the womb, like that bit of Scripture says (which means I also thought it was a leading argument against abortion).

#19 Nina

Nina

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,149 posts

Posted 05 February 2008 - 05:54 PM

Oh. I worded my question the way I did because I believed it was the Orthodox belief that God creates us in the womb, like that bit of Scripture says (which means I also thought it was a leading argument against abortion).


Of course there are God's energies participating there. We know that when antiChrist will be conceived the powers/energies of Satan will participate completely during that conception. A baby lives in the mind of God and then is given to the parents. A baby is born pure and during the first days of life he speaks with God and angels. Afterwards, he speaks with parents, family, society, with those that God warned not to mislead the little children, he speaks (or better is spoken to by media) and so on.

To Father David:

Father, if what you say is true about the possibility of a genetic predisposition. A homosexual decides to become a parent. After conceiving he/she regrets the decision since he/she is not happy to bring an infant in this world that might be genetically programed to be also homosexual. This homosexual parent-to-be decides to abort the pregnancy. What happens then? This may be an ethical scenario, but I am trying to understand.

#20 Justin Farr

Justin Farr

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 96 posts

Posted 05 February 2008 - 06:44 PM

Father, if what you say is true about the possibility of a genetic predisposition. A homosexual decides to become a parent. After conceiving he/she regrets the decision since he/she is not happy to bring an infant in this world that might be genetically programed to be also homosexual. This homosexual parent-to-be decides to abort the pregnancy. What happens then? This may be an ethical scenario, but I am trying to understand.


a bit along the same lines... Is it best for children to be adopted by a homosexual couple, or left in a terrible orphanage?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users