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Could man's creative power have collectively created science?


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#1 John M.

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Posted 10 April 2008 - 11:16 AM

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Man is created in God's image. God is THE CREATOR. God gave man creative power. Man has created the arts which seem to serve man as a pastime, an entertainment, a starting point for conversation, a way to relaxation, a way of expression, a source of income and a means to influence others.

But art does not have the practical uses that come from the sciences. Through them, man can create better means for survival, for comfort, for transportation, for production, for entertainment, nourishment, for study of his environment and the exploration of more distant environments.

Could there not be a harmony, like the yin and yang in eastern wisdom? Could not art be the yin, the feminine and passive nature and science be the yang?

What if man starts a science by asking a question and then seeks answers? What if the ones who most energetically seek, making many sacrifices along the way, become rewarded with a part of an answer that is created by man collectively from his collective psyche? What if the stars began as lights in the sky and then through man's quest, he, man, collectively caused them to have substance that could be observed and measured through man's created instruments?

The Lord said, "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." (Mat. 7:7,8) This could apply to many levels.

I'm not looking for crtics or destroyers here. I'm looking for creators here. People who can collectively create, in order to learn answers from ourselves through the creative power that God breathed into our ancestor.

When mankind works together, even in relatively small groups, much can be achieved. Usually, and historically, man has worked against man. That is a terrible waste of energy and creativity from both sides neutralizing each other. But if we can bring the yin and the yang, the male and the female, the strong and the subtle elements of mankind into balance, can we not create some wonderful concept of use and benefit to all?

Can we not discover a great reservoir of God's creative power within His crowning creation, through shared contemplation of both the visible universe through science, and the invisible universe through spiritual contemplation, to realize man's potential as both a physical and spiritual being of God's making?

Creative ideas please?:) John

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#2 Rick James York

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 07:06 AM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'Rick James York' is identical to members 'Rostislav' and 'John M.' The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

Creative ideas please?:) John


This looks interesting John.

I don't know if my contribution is really exactly what you're after but I think it is in the ball park.

I once saw some brief interview on TV about how science fact follows science fiction. One famous SF writer was being used as an example. I'm not sure if it was Jules Vern or H.G. Wells, but if I had to hazard a guess, I'd say Jules V.

Apparently this writer came to his publisher with a manuscript and was told it is too impossible and unbelievable. "Your letting your imagination cloud your better judgement, Jules (or H.G.)." It was never published but the original M/S surfaced after those imaginary machines already existed decades later.

Well what he had him read was a series of short stories. One was about the future and in it there was a machine that you could put a printed sheet of paper into and in another city, another machine would print a copy of it. (the FAX M/C).

Another future machine was a visual telephone. You could see who you talked to while you spoke with them.

Microwave ovens first existed in science fiction stories before they were invented for space travel and then used in hot food outlets until finally retailed for home kitchens.

So I guess some new fields of science were created, if not full sciences.

Computers also existed in science fiction stories decades before the first one was invented. Now they are smaller than the imagined ones were. That WAS a science invented by man; computer science--you can study for a degree in it.

But all these things were once thought to be impossible by most people. Just a few "energetic", as you say, pioneers made sacrifices to turn their dreams into realities.

Maybe these practical examples are a way to start this thread before we can really think outside the box of our shared reality.

James

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#3 Effie Ganatsios

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 08:53 AM

Reading and rereading the original post, one thing came to mind.

All things are from God, especially our brains. I feel it's something that we sometimes forget. God is within us, He is in our bodies, in our hearts, and in our brains.

We still do not know what our brains are capable of. Scientists tell us that we use only 10% of our brain power. What is the other 90%???????

Our brains create. Our brains give us our ideas, on which we then act - if we are at all creative individuals.

Our hearts tell us if what we think and what we do are from God.

John wrote : "Can we not discover a great reservoir of God's creative power within His crowning creation, through shared contemplation of both the visible universe through science, and the invisible universe through spiritual contemplation, to realize man's potential as both a physical and spiritual being of God's making? "

But, of course we can and should. Who told you we couldn't? Caution needs to be exercised here because man is God's creation but he is also filled with arrogance and pride and stops being God's creation when he makes himself his own god.

#4 Effie Ganatsios

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 09:00 AM

This might be interesting and relevant :

http://www.ellopos.n...g-beautiful.asp

"Of all existing things there is a twofold manner of apprehension, the consideration of them being divided between what appertains to intellect and what appertains to the senses; and besides these there is nothing to be detected in the nature of existing things, as extending beyond this division. Now these two worlds have been separated from each other by a wide interval, so that the sensible is not included in those qualities which mark the intellectual, nor this last in those qualities which distinguish the sensible, but each receives its formal character from qualities opposite to those of the other."



But both are in man - your ying and yang.

#5 John M.

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 10:14 AM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'John M.' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'Rostislav'. The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

This might be interesting and relevant :

http://www.ellopos.n...g-beautiful.asp

"Of all existing things there is a twofold manner of apprehension, the consideration of them being divided between what appertains to intellect and what appertains to the senses; and besides these there is nothing to be detected in the nature of existing things, as extending beyond this division. Now these two worlds have been separated from each other by a wide interval, so that the sensible is not included in those qualities which mark the intellectual, nor this last in those qualities which distinguish the sensible, but each receives its formal character from qualities opposite to those of the other."



But both are in man - your ying and yang.

Yes Effie

I read 5 pages from that website and it is an expansion on the concept of duality and ballance between opposites. Trust a Greek to come up with an existing philosophy on a theme. Well done! The language though is a bit tough for most in that it utilises a higher vocabulary than most are accustomed to.

I once read in a book that we carry our perceptions of reality around with us like an egg-shaped shell. It is partly transparent and partly opaque. The transparent part lets us see outside so that we can interact with the outside world and the opaque part is like our personal movie screen on which we project our own perceived reality.

When two or more people share in common perceptions and philosophies, they join their egg-shells together, forming a larger composite shell when together and go back to the single size when not together.

Some people have a larger personal shell. They are said to have a wide sphere of influence. When they enter a room, everyone's attention is on them. The whole mood of the room changes dramatically to accomodate them. But they can be only influencial in man's world and be insignificant in God's spiritual world like a famous entertainer. Then again, if you ever have the fortune of being in the presence of a saint, you will love him/her if you love God, or you will hate him/her, if you love yourself (in the egotistical sense).

Members of organizations will share in a huge eggshell but often keep their smaller personal shells up too. What they see projected on the inside, on the opaque "movie screen" is their own reality. They perceive the world intermixed with that personal reality. These realities are also paradigms.

The whole world of modern man is a huge eggshell that has projected on its inside surface, a mass reality that is accepted by the majority. This mass reality is influenced by our mass imaginations.

But that is not yet the true reality. It is like a long-playing movie based on fiction. It is a very huge eggshell, but it is not the biggest.

The biggest eggshell is the true reality created by God. That reality includes all beings, visible and invisible.

To be in constant communion with God, makes all the other eggshells completely transparent to those of us who arrive at that blessed state of being. One is then on the outside looking in and also able to be on the inside looking out.

This is what our Lord did when He became incarnate for our salvation. He was made by His own Will into a man living in our physical world amongst us while also being God the Son seated with the Father in His divinity and authority.

He, the Son, wants us to share in His divinity as saints have done even while yet in this world. If we can do that, we are then assured to continue in that union with God into the next life.

But let's first see how mankind creates science to study its 'tweaks' on created reality in this world. That is, for the sake of this thread. We are already working on the spiritual side as practicing Orthodox Christians. Maybe the two can merge when the first is developed.

In the Lord, John

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#6 Yuri Zharikov

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 03:26 PM

Goindg back to the original post... I am thinking abit on the fly.
Our creative powers are a part of the original creation - Adam created names for all animals - and we can and do create essentially in three spheres. Noetic/spiritual (abstract concepts, theories, philosophies), sensual (art) and physical. In a very broad sense of the word, "science" permeates all of these spheres. Now, ever since we unlawfully stole the fruit of knowledge, our creative power lost its natural alignment with the will of God. It has lost its goodness and has become divided unto itself. It also has become infected with passsions and afflicted by the influence of demons. So as Effie indicated we need, as it were, to manually allign our create power with the will of Christ (do violence to our own will/ideas) to make that which we create good. To paraphrase St. Gregory Palamas, our creative power (science, knowledge, etc) should be subservient to our theology, not the other way around. So, as John suggested, our theology then makes the egg-shell not an opaque screen on which we see projections of our own passions and take them for reality, but a more or less clear glass through which we see the world and ourselves and through which we can give the right impetus to our creation as well as perhaps assess the goodness of creations of others (e.g. the Holy Trinity of St. Andrew Rublev vs the Black Quadrat of Malevich). I think it is in this sense the Fathers laughed to scorn gnostic beliefs of emanations and pagan philosophies of a cyclical universe - they simply looked at them (these ideas) through the clear glass of Orthodox theology and thus perceived their "wrongness".

P.S. I have just re-read John's last post and see that mine is a bit repetitive... sorry... must be the west coast egg-shell thing :-0

#7 John M.

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 05:48 PM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'John M.' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'Rostislav'. The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

The post that appeared here recently was not my original post but was altered. Someone who is not behaving as a Christian used my password to cause conflict and confusion between forum members.

My password was easy to guess, it was my surname which I revealed in my "introducing new members" post. I normally do not use such transparent passwords elsewhere but I naively assumed that only Christians are using this forum. There is at least one pretender in our midst.

In God's truth, John

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#8 Yuri Zharikov

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Posted 11 April 2008 - 07:21 PM

assume.
You majesty, Please move mafd eat Thank you for the final time.


???? this creation seems to have been afflicted by a doze of entropy - the text mutated away from the original thought to become unrecognizable (like a fruitfly with legs on its head) :-)

#9 John M.

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 02:36 AM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'John M.' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'Rostislav'. The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

Goindg back to the original post... I am thinking a bit on the fly.
Our creative powers are a part of the original creation - Adam created names for all animals. (Gen. 2:19,20)

And when he did so, he assigned their nature and characteristics to them. He literally participated in their final form of existance (prior to the fall that is). So, Adam played his part in the creation of varieties of life, in that he was delegated by God, the power to add on to God's creation.

Now, ever since we unlawfully stole the fruit of knowledge, our creative power lost its natural alignment with the will of God. It has lost its goodness and has become divided unto itself. It also has become infected with passsions and afflicted by the influence of demons.

Now, man can also be creative in evil matters. He can devise an intricate crime; carry out an elaborate hoax; produce movies and video games to introduce evil temptations into the minds of our young. Man in his corrupted form can no longer create by mere word alone as he did when he created the animals' characteristics through naming them. But we can regain this power of creation by word alone.

So as Effie indicated we need, as it were, to manually allign our creative power with the will of Christ (do violence to our own will/ideas) to make that which we create good. To paraphrase St. Gregory Palamas, our creative power (science, knowledge, etc) should be subservient to our theology, not the other way around.

We can project our reality on the world at large rather than just on our own inner personal world as Yuri points out when he says:

So, as John suggested, our theology then makes the egg-shell not an opaque screen on which we see projections of our own passions and take them for reality, but a more or less clear glass through which we see the world and ourselves and through which we can give the right impetus to our creation as well as perhaps assess the goodness of the creations of others.

John (the real one this time)

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#10 Effie Ganatsios

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 05:21 AM

The eggshell description is a good one, but John, I believe that all great discoveries in science have been produced by one brain, not a committee of brains. One brain that thought.

Today's brains don't really think that much. We rely too much on the thoughts of others. What we should be doing is switching off from all outside influences and sitting down by ourselves and just thinking.

This is the way it has always been. Man might have discovered fire with others i.e. lightning or a bush fire might have roasted an animal and when man first tried the meat, he thought it was much better than raw, so he started carrying around with him a little piece of coal that was not completely dead with which to start a fire for his camp.

But just about everything else was surely discovered by man using his brain and figuring out solutions to problems.

A simple example : there was no one else under the apple tree when the apple fell on Newton.

"Nearly everyone has heard about Newton and an apple. But few people seem to know the story behind it! Technically, there is no actual documentation for this story, so it might contain exaggerations. But it is relatively well accepted as having happened.
Prior to this incident, Newton had invented something we now call the Calculus, and with it had mathematically proven that an "inverse square law" dependence, such as gravitation on distance, MUST act as though all the mass of an object (the Earth) is at the exact center of the Earth.

Newton was trying to think of some way of experimentally confirming what he had already calculated, that inverse square dependence. He was sitting out in a field, looking at the Moon in the sky overhead. He believed that the Moon was orbiting the Earth because of the gravitation of the Earth. He believed that the Moon would normally have gone straight off into space, but the Earth's gravitation caused it to "constantly fall" toward the Earth, making its path curved rather than straight. But he hadn't thought of any way to experimentally prove that!

By his time, science had fairly accurately calculated the radius of the Earth, just under 4,000 miles (6400 km). It was also known that the Moon orbited the Earth at an average distance of just under 240,000 miles (384,000 km, about 60 times as far from the center of the Earth as he was. These things were known.

When an apple fell from a tree near him, it suddenly dawned on him that the same Earth's gravitation that must be curving the Moon's path must also have made that apple accelerate toward the Earth in its fall!"

Newton - one man, one brain.

Am I misunderstanding?

Of course, science is a series of discoveries, one leading to another but only one brain will come up with the next step in the sequence.

Effie

Years ago I read that we all have brilliant ideas but we never sit still long enough to note them down and then realize the rightness of them and do something about them.

#11 John M.

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Posted 12 April 2008 - 09:33 AM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'John M.' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'Rostislav'. The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

The eggshell description is a good one, but John, I believe that all great discoveries in science have been produced by one brain, not a committee of brains. One brain that thought.

Dear Orthodox sister, Effie

Your memory of scientific knowledge is impressive. I was once told of a book existing in some ethnically Orthodox language that told about inventions and scientific discoveries that occurred simultaneously in more than one part of the world but the one that happened in a country with rapid links to the world's news media got all the credit.
This was of course in the times when the Internet and TV did not yet exist.

Forgive me if I was not clear about the goal of my thread. It is not for the sake of making scientific discoveries. There are plenty of scientists in the world already doing that even as we type.

The goal I am after is to learn how to use the creative power that God has created us with. Adam used it when he named the animals. It is the power to create by word or thought alone. Saints have done this individually but I am no saint and I would think any saints alive today would not be using computers in their caves or wherever else thay have found to flee the corrupt world we now live in.

Don't get me wrong. I am not excluding saints among us that we cannot recognise as such. But I am saying that because many of us are not saints, perhaps by good Orthodox living, especially during the great lent, with prayer we can collectively utilize the creative power that has lain dorment in most of us for so long.

That is, the power to create by thought or word alone (with prayer for the Lord's assistance of course). So not creating with our minds and hands. Then if not create this way, then to discover if mankind has created this way collectively in the past with much greater numbers of co-creators.

I believe that just because we are corrupt and have used our flesh to create in the past ie. hands and eyes used to make something new; that does not mean that it is impossible to create as God's image was intended to do.

Believe me, all the vey bad things happening in the world today did not happen without man's assistance. Man has been listening to the devil increasingly more than he has been listening to God.

The devil's power over man is only to seduce, entice and tempt. Man has to consent to his suggestions in order for the evil to manifest in the world. If the entire population of the world focussed its attention on God and obeyed His commandments without exception, the devil would have no effect on this world whatsoever.

So are you up to the challenge of working in a team towards the goal of recovering mankind's forgotten power of creation by thought or word alone? Even if we do not achieve its execution, at least we may achieve its discovery and understanding through faith and works that would grow even more at the conclusion of the quest.

Faith is extremely powerful. I read of an old hermit who routinely put into practice what the Lord said in (Mat. 17:20). This hermit was a well known Holy man in his area who one day, left the world to become a recluse in a cave. After a couple decades, a younger man decided to try to find him. He learned where he said he was heading over twenty years before and left to journey in that direction.

He prayed for God's help and found the hermit living deep in a forest in a cave high above the forest grounds. He met the hermit and asked him questions. As he spoke he noticed movement out of the corner of his eye. To his astonishment it was the movement of mountains froom one side of his view to the other.

When the younger man expressed his awe at such a sight, the hermit asked him, "Do not the people of the world now have as much faith as a mustard seed and move mountains daily?" After the other replied, "No", the hermit said, "Oh, then I must return to my cave and continue praying for the world. It is a sad state they are in if they still lack such simple faith."

Faith will give us much.

May God watch over you and your family, John

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#12 Rostislav

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Posted 16 April 2008 - 06:39 AM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'Rostislav' is identical to members 'Rick James York' and 'John M.' The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

I remembered seeing this obscure thread and thought that maybe this quote from post 57 in the <Creation and evolutionary theory II> thread may be relevant, I don't know.

God created a bigger universe than we can analyze or define and this is shown in the quantom theory which states that nothing can be really "known" because the act of measurement or analysis "changes" the object under investigation. Science is all about setting or determining boundaries, theology is about getting beyond those boundaries. Obviously there are going to be areas of overlap and apparent contradition. Indeed quantum mechanics and chaos theory show us that there is a place for the apophatic approach. God is bigger than some of us want Him to be. We want to put Him in a box, but He will not be contained. Dealing with that can be difficult for some people. Interesting tho' that at the microcosmic and macrocosmic levels, God and science meet, and science still does not know quite what to make of it.....

Herman


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#13 Rick James York

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Posted 16 April 2008 - 02:22 PM

MODERATOR'S NOTICE: The following message has been posted by an account engaged in on-line identity fraud. The member 'Rick James York' is identical to members 'Rostislav' and 'John M.' The current post, made before discovery of this fact, is being retained in order to preserve the flow of threads; but readers should be aware of this case of multiple identity.

This latest post #12 got me thinking. I read it 3 times before something finally clicked in my brain. It started with the word quantum.

I remembered physics and quantum leaps in learning. Then I remembered a surrealistic sounding song in the 70s? called "The Edge of Reality".

That's when the concept coalesced for me. Science brings man's understanding of physical creation to the edge of reality. Once man has measured, analyzed and explained the periphery of his known world's reality, his reality takes a quantum leap in learning.

Man is then at the inner rim of more reality. He is at the point where he knows little and begins asking more questions. Once he has defined that reality through actually creating its components with his intellect, his learning takes another quantum leap.

Man keeps extending the boundaries of his known universe and reality by measuring, analyzing and explaining it to himself. Then he takes a quantum leap and begins again at the lower limits to define that reality and continues the process of actually creating his ever expanding knowledge of creation while, at the same time participating in the creative process like he did in Eden when he named the animals and gave them their characteristics, their defining qualities (when they were yet pefect or close to it).

Man is actively creating the universe, but creating at a snail's pace when one considers the infinite dimensions of space and scientific discovery compared to the relatively small progress so far achieved.

In heaven God will ever reveal his attributes to man without man ever knowing them all. This process of divine revelation will be never ending.

But one scientific quest remains without attaining its goal. The theory of evolution. This goal cannot be attained because man is stepping on forbidden hallowed ground. He is trespassing in God's domain. He is trying to unlock the secrets of his own creation. He is trying to be his own god because, to measure, analyze and define components of his reality, man creates it. But through the theory, the component that man seeks to master and continue creating is man. That is God's work, not ours.

Those who respect God and obey Him will be admitted into the heavenly realm where God will make them into gods. But they will never become THE CREATOR, nor will they create man. It is only God who gives life. Even in this world, a couple can conceive a child and the mother gives birth but it is God who creates all children.

The theory of origins of species will remain a theory to the end of time. God forbids it from becoming a reality because man cannot handle the responsibility of the power of creating intelligent beings. In this world and this life, man would become absolutely corrupt if he acquired godly powers (the ability to create intelligible beings) while in this passionate world.

Will God give man that power in the kingdom of heaven? We cannot know this now but one thing is certain, in heaven man will not have ambition nor even desire for such power, nor will he be concerned with the physical world he once occupied. He will be concerned with knowing the attributes of God because he will always yearn to draw closer to Him. God is protecting us from ourselves when he forbids a quantum leap in the scientific theory of evolution.

Thank God for being our God and not letting us destroy our own future salvation as a race of intelligible sentient beings. Free will allows us to individually be saved or destroyed according to our choices but it does not allow us to destroy the rest of mankind through allowing some men to become gods in the flesh or gods in this world. That is also why man will never conquer death and achieve immortality without God.

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