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How many Athonites?


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#21 Owen Jones

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Posted 08 May 2008 - 02:37 PM

The Ecumenical Patriarch is claiming universal jurisdiction, while the Russian Patriarch (probably a KGB guy) is jockeying for dominance and wants to diminish the power and influence of the Ecumenical Patriarch. Messy business.

#22 Ken McRae

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 02:56 AM

Messy business.


Speaking of "messy business," I can't say I'm too impressed with the way the EP is treating the Esphigmenou Brotherhood of late. It is truly disgraceful, in my opinion, but perhaps I don't have all the facts. Does the Rudder give any guidance in this situation? Can anyone provide me (us all) with any real insight into what's going on there; and how the rest of the Athonite brothers are reacting to the plight of Esphigmenou? Thanks.

#23 Olga

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 07:44 AM

A short answer to a long-running and complex situation, Ken:

1. The Ephigmenou impasse has been going on with varying degrees of intensity for decades.

2. The governing council of Athos (the council of the principal monasteries on the peninsula) have long attempted a peaceful and reasonable resolution or accommodation with Esphigmenou over a similar period, to little avail.

3. Mistakes and transgressions have been made on both sides over the years, however, on balance, Esphigmenou seems to have behaved more so in a spirit of schism and disobedience, rather than conciliation.

#24 Ken McRae

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 01:35 PM


3. Mistakes and transgressions have been made on both sides over the years, however, on balance, Esphigmenou seems to have behaved more so in a spirit of schism and disobedience, rather than conciliation.


Thanks, Olga.

Still, if it is true that the EP has taken to trying to starve the brothers to death, by cutting off their food and medical supplies, that seems to me like a fairly "unchristian" spirit and approach to the problem, not to mention inhumane; and it seems there have already been at least two brothers that have died as a direct result of such radical measures. That is what I am referring too.

The Ephigmenou Brothers may be schismatics, but as far as I can see, the Gospel does not sanction inhumane behaviour toward our enemies; but rather to bless them that curse us, and to do good onto them. Or have I got it wrong? How can starving the brothers to death be squared with blessing your enemies, and doing good unto them? Trying to starve your enemy to death seems to be completely opposite to what Jesus taught.

Don't you think so?

#25 Misha

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Posted 11 May 2008 - 03:54 PM

EP some years ago used violence (policemen and pro-EP monks ) to force the small russian brotherhood of st Elias Skete (friendly to ROCOR) to leave Mt Athos,because they denied to commemorate EP's name .

Same things happen again now with the Esphigmenou monastery.

There's a lack of humility and love from both sides....unfortunately....

#26 Kosta

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 08:34 AM

Keep in mind that any official count of the number of monks on Mt Athos does Not include the 90 or so monks of the Esphigmenou brotherhood.

The EP is not very popular on Athos nowadays. The Skete of St Bail has aligned themselves with the Cyprianites and many monks have left the monasteries to become hutdwellers in protest over the EP. The Holy Mountain is more divided than most people think.

#27 Carlos Antonio Palad

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 09:43 AM

Keep in mind that any official count of the number of monks on Mt Athos does Not include the 90 or so monks of the Esphigmenou brotherhood.

The EP is not very popular on Athos nowadays. The Skete of St Bail has aligned themselves with the Cyprianites and many monks have left the monasteries to become hutdwellers in protest over the EP. The Holy Mountain is more divided than most people think.


Sometimes I wonder if the time will come when the monasteries of the Holy Mountain will ask to be received into the omophor of either the Serbian or the Russian Patriarchate.

Is Esphigmenou the only non-commemorating monastery? I thought that since December 2006 many monasteries have ceased to commemorate the EP.

#28 Misha

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 11:04 AM

The majority of the athonite monasteries have ceased to commemorate the EP Athenagoras ,during the 70s.
Monastery of Stavroniketa has done the same under the spiritual guidance of the renowned elder Paisios.
After the 2006 common liturgy between EP -Pope in Constantinople there was a wave of reactions in Mt Athos ,especially from the Sketiotes and the celliotes, but no major monastery has officialy ceased EP's commemoration.
Signs of the times.....

#29 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 12:54 PM

Sometimes I wonder if the time will come when the monasteries of the Holy Mountain will ask to be received into the omophor of either the Serbian or the Russian Patriarchate.


The West wouldn't allow that.

#30 Ken McRae

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 02:53 PM

The West wouldn't allow that.


This comment went over my head, I'm afraid. Please clarify. Thanks.

#31 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 13 May 2008 - 06:19 PM

Ken McRae Quotation:
Originally Posted by Andreas Moran
The West wouldn't allow that.

This comment went over my head, I'm afraid. Please clarify. Thanks.


Well, the West is hostile to Russia and Serbia and to Orthodoxy and wouldn't want to encourage what is an area within Greece to be linked with Russia and Serbia in that way. The US soon got rid of EP Maximos V as is well known because he wanted normal relations with MP.

#32 Fr Nectarios Trevino

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:11 AM

Speaking of "messy business," I can't say I'm too impressed with the way the EP is treating the Esphigmenou Brotherhood of late. It is truly disgraceful, in my opinion, but perhaps I don't have all the facts. Does the Rudder give any guidance in this situation? Can anyone provide me (us all) with any real insight into what's going on there; and how the rest of the Athonite brothers are reacting to the plight of Esphigmenou? Thanks.


One thing no one has said and we must remember: where there is no bishop, there is no church. Rightly or wrongly, this applies to Esphigmenou - they are not 'in' the Holy Church.

#33 Marcus Sgro

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:38 AM

Well, the West is hostile to Russia and Serbia and to Orthodoxy and wouldn't want to encourage what is an area within Greece to be linked with Russia and Serbia in that way. The US soon got rid of EP Maximos V as is well known because he wanted normal relations with MP.


?????????

[We seem to be moving way off topic. Maybe this would be better in another forum]

#34 Ken McRae

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 02:50 AM

Well, the West is hostile to Russia and Serbia and to Orthodoxy and wouldn't want to encourage what is an area within Greece to be linked with Russia and Serbia in that way. The US soon got rid of EP Maximos V as is well known because he wanted normal relations with MP.


I see. I get it now. It seems to make a lot of sense, in one way.

#35 Misha

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 09:20 AM

fr.Nectarios

there were many periods and places during the 2000 yrs of Church's history,when the bishops were heretics and the faithful orthodox have broken communion with them.


A great example is st Marcus of Ephesus who denied to have any relation with the uniate patriarch and the bishops who followed him.
Even the faithful people of Constantinople didn't entry in Hagia Sophia after the common liturgy between patriarch Isidore and a cardinal in 12 December 1452.

i ,humbly ,think that we should be very cautious when we decide who is in and outside the Church,especially when there are no dogmatic differences.

#36 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:12 AM

I would say we are getting very off-topic here. I believe the original topic was how many monastics are in residence on Mt. Athos, not their politics.

#37 Michael Stickles

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Posted 16 May 2008 - 03:15 PM

I would say we are getting very off-topic here. I believe the original topic was how many monastics are in residence on Mt. Athos, not their politics.


Good point. There was another thread devoted to Mt. Athos and Esphigmenou Monastery, which perhaps could be revived if people want to pursue that track. It does seem that some of the issues addressed here might eventually wind up affecting the population of Athos (for good or ill), but I don't think that's sufficient to claim that they're "on-topic".

I had never heard that the Esphigmenou monks were not included in the official counts of Mt. Athos, as Kosta reported. That could up some of the counts by 90+ (depending on whether it extends to associated sketes/hermitages, if any).

In Christ,
Mike

#38 Kosta

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Posted 17 May 2008 - 05:30 AM

From what i understand only 2 or 3 are counted since they have been residence of the Monastery since before the initial schism of 1972 and there names are registered with the government (or something to that effect)




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