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Liturgy in Maccabees?


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#1 YvetteC

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:06 PM

I can't remember where I heard this--probably in one of the podcasts I listen to--but I heard that the liturgy can be found in Maccabees.  Can anyone in here help me with this?  I'd like to know how to properly respond to protestant claims that the liturgy is a "Catholic invention," which is the way one former friend of mine worded it. 



#2 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 11:35 AM

Have any Protestants asked you to respond? It is difficult to know how to respond to a nonsensical assertion such as that made since it is based on ignorance of Church history and an unreasoned prejudice against things 'Catholic' by which one supposes is meant the Roman Church; would even the best possible response persuade your Protestant interlocutors to accept the truth of that response? What do they mean by 'liturgy'? If it was a 'Catholic invention', when would that have been? What do they think preceded it? My guess is that such Protestants have such an ingrained prejudice against even the very word 'liturgy' that it might be better to start by using another term such as 'worship'. The worship of God was commanded by Him in the form we read of in Exodus. Jewish worship later was performed in the Temple and in synagogues. The apostles continued with Jewish forms of worship as read in Acts. The Eucharist as instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ was set into these Jewish forms of worship, and we see the shape of early Christian worship - 'liturgy' - taking form in the Pauline epistles and in early writings such as the Didache and the works of St Justin Martyr.



#3 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 12:17 PM

We Orthodox live Christ within the Divine Liturgy, or rather Christ lives within us during the Divine Liturgy. The Divine Liturgy is a work of God. We say: "Time is a creation of the Lord". Among other things it means now is the time for God to act. Christ liturgizes, we live with Christ.

 

The Divine Liturgy is the way we know God and the way God becomes known to us. Christ celebrated the Divine Liturgy once and this passed into eternity. His divinized human nature came to the Divine Liturgy. We know Christ specifically in the Divine Liturgy. The Divine Liturgy we celebrate is the same Divine Liturgy which was done by Christ on Great Thursday in the Mystical Supper. The 14th through the 16th chapters of the Gospel according to John is one Divine Liturgy. So in the Divine Liturgy we understand Holy Scripture.

 

The early Church lived without a New Testament, but not without the Divine Liturgy. The first records, the written hymns, exist in the Divine Liturgy.

 

From Elder Sophrony (Sakharov).



#4 Kosta

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:18 AM

The word liturgy is greek from Leitos (people) and ourgia (works). Meaning the work of the people, the term is indeed used in the NT just find a greek -English concordance. There is plenty examples of Liturgical worship in the NT, here is just a few:

 

Jude 20-21

2 Cor 13.14

1 Tim 3.16

Rev 5.8, 8.3-4

1 Cor 14.15-16, Verse 16 is still practiced during the Eucharist to this day with the saying of amen.

 

The verse in Macabees your referring to is probably the reference to prayers for the dead.



#5 YvetteC

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 01:04 AM

Thank you for your responses. 



#6 YvetteC

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 01:10 AM

The word liturgy is greek from Leitos (people) and ourgia (works). Meaning the work of the people, the term is indeed used in the NT just find a greek -English concordance. There is plenty examples of Liturgical worship in the NT, here is just a few:

 

Jude 20-21

2 Cor 13.14

1 Tim 3.16

Rev 5.8, 8.3-4

1 Cor 14.15-16, Verse 16 is still practiced during the Eucharist to this day with the saying of amen.

 

The verse in Macabees your referring to is probably the reference to prayers for the dead.

 

I could see it in the verses from Revelation, but not in the others.  I think I was looking for something more direct and clear-cut.  The others could be interpreted in a multitude of ways. 

 

For instance, I got in one entanglement with a protestant who kept saying priests wear 'costumes' and clergy should be dressed like everyone else, and where did we ever get it in our heads that priests are supposed to dress the way they dress.  Where are the vestments in scripture? 


Edited by YvetteC, 22 December 2013 - 01:10 AM.


#7 Kosta

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 03:55 AM

The point is all those posts are examples of benedictions, ancient creeds and prayers that would have been familiar to the hearer. The word liturgy is used 6 times in the NT. Unfortunately it's translated as either minister or service. The Philippians chapter which Paul says Christ was in the form of God but emptied himself is universally recognized as a pre pauline hymn. Meaning Paul is making a theological point based on a familiar hymn that everyone already knows and is not in dispute being already in use in the church for over a generation. That's liturgical worship, the laity worshipping publicly reciting litanies,creeds, benedictions, hymns, prayers that everyone agrees with passed down.

#8 Phoebe K.

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Posted 22 December 2013 - 07:03 PM

hi,

 

Vestments are an ainchant part of tradition, they are not directly referd to in the NT, as the writers did not see it as neccery, rather it is persevered in the holy tradition of the church from which scriptures came.

 

For those who insit on a textual proof for vestments the origin is in Exidos and Liviticats, here their is a detaled description of the vestments worn by the Priests of the temple who were the foreshadowing of the clergy of the Church.  Also in the prays the Priest says when he puts on each item has a prayer which is from scriptures mostly from the Psalms.  each thing worn by the Bishop, Priests and their assistants has a meaning and spiritual significance, not just different clothing.



#9 YvetteC

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 12:46 AM

The point is all those posts are examples of benedictions, ancient creeds and prayers that would have been familiar to the hearer. The word liturgy is used 6 times in the NT. Unfortunately it's translated as either minister or service. The Philippians chapter which Paul says Christ was in the form of God but emptied himself is universally recognized as a pre pauline hymn. Meaning Paul is making a theological point based on a familiar hymn that everyone already knows and is not in dispute being already in use in the church for over a generation. That's liturgical worship, the laity worshiping publicly reciting litanies,creeds, benedictions, hymns, prayers that everyone agrees with passed down.

 

Wow, I never knew that.  Do you know which appearances of 'minister' and 'service' were originally 'liturgy'?  Can you tell me the verses?



#10 Kosta

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 06:03 AM

Here are some scriptural references alongside the original koine greek. The word in the parenthesis is the actual word used not the italicized words of ministered and service

Acts 13.2:

 

As they ministered (liturgized) to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

 

λειτουργούντων δὲ αὐτῶν τῷ κυρίῳ καὶ νηστευόντων εἶπεν τὸ πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον· Ἀφορίσατε δή μοι τὸν Βαρναβᾶν καὶ Σαῦλον εἰς τὸ ἔργον ὃ προσκέκλημαι αὐτούς.

 

 

Luke 1.23

 

So it was, as soon as the days of his service (Liturgy) were completed, that he departed to his own house.

 

23 καὶ ἐγένετο ὡς ἐπλήσθησαν αἱ ἡμέραι τῆς λειτουργίας αὐτοῦ, ἀπῆλθεν εἰς τὸν οἶκον αὐτοῦ.

 

 

Phillipians 2.17:

 

17 Yes, and if I am being poured out as a drink offering on the sacrifice and service (liturgy) of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all.

 

 

17 ἀλλὰ εἰ καὶ σπένδομαι ἐπὶ τῇ θυσίᾳ καὶ λειτουργίᾳ τῆς πίστεως ὑμῶν, χαίρω καὶ συγχαίρω πᾶσιν ὑμῖν·

 

 

Hebrews 8.6:

 

But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry (liturgy), inasmuch as He is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

 

]νυνὶ δὲ διαφορωτέρας τέτυχεν λειτουργίας, ὅσῳ καὶ κρείττονός ἐστιν διαθήκης μεσίτης, ἥτις ἐπὶ κρείττοσιν ἐπαγγελίαις νενομοθέτηται.

 

 

Hebrew 1.7:

 

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”[a]

And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers(liturgizers) a flame of fire.”

 

καὶ πρὸς μὲν τοὺς ἀγγέλους λέγει· Ὁ ποιῶν τοὺς ἀγγέλους αὐτοῦ πνεύματα, καὶ τοὺς λειτουργοὺς αὐτοῦ πυρὸς φλόγα·


Edited by Kosta, 23 December 2013 - 06:11 AM.


#11 YvetteC

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 07:08 AM

If the Orthodox Church knows where all these changes occurred (I also heard of another where paradosis was translated as teaching in some places and tradition in others--ones where there was a negative context) then why does the Church not put out an Orthodox Bible with all of the original wording intact?  If the OSB is just the NKJV, doesn't it include all these changes that were made to scripture?



#12 Kosta

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 07:34 AM

That would be a huge project and not without controversy. Just look at the Lord's Prayer.

 

 

Our Father who art in Heaven (in the greek the word heaven is in the plural ouranoi , 'in the heavens')

 

The phrase 'give us this day our daily bread' , the word 'daily' translated from the greek 'epiousios' leaves a lot to be desired and can safely be considered inaccurate.

 

And finally 'Deliver us from evil". In greek the word is ponirou (evil one)

 

 

On a side note the Greek Orthodox Church views only the greek Septuagint and the New Testament in its original koine greek as the only divinely inspired version of the bible.



#13 YvetteC

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 09:08 AM

On a side note the Greek Orthodox Church views only the greek Septuagint and the New Testament in its original koine greek as the only divinely inspired version of the bible.

 

Can't they put out that Bible?  It just seems like Orthodox have to piece together one version of the OT and another version of the NT, or buy the NKJV and just keep track of where all the inaccuracies are.  It's quite frustrating.  In every version of KJV I've read, it retains Luther's addition of "allein" (alone) in Romans 3:28.  If we know that was not a part of the original divinely inspired text, why are we left to buying and reading Bibles that have that in there?  The Church needs to come up with a Bible for Orthodox.  It's a question I see on every Orthodox forum I've ever found. 



#14 Kosta

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Posted 23 December 2013 - 05:52 PM

Well that wouldn't help us, as just a few people in the world read ancient Greek. In Greece by law all NT bibles must have the original text side by side with any modern greek translation. It needs to further be approved by either the EP or the Church of Greece.

#15 Nicolaj

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 05:11 PM

in my opinion it is a major problem that it is very hard to become a accurate translation of the Holy Scripts.

I my here sign up for the EOB project that already finished the New Testament, and may say it is possible the best translation available at the time.

 

As i do not know if it is proper to post here a link to their homepage, you may write me a PM, and I send you the link.

 

Sinner Nicolaj


Edited by Nicolaj, 29 December 2013 - 05:18 PM.


#16 YvetteC

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 06:52 PM

I just got a Bible today.  I inquired at the parish I've been attending as to whether they had a supply of second-hand Bibles for those who couldn't afford new, that I have been unemployed since last March, and the priest gave me a new OSB.  I feel extremely guilty about it, and had I known, I wouldn't have asked.  It's very expensive and I can't see how they can just take them off the shelves and hand them over for free.  That's a loss for the church.  I am very happy to finally have my own Bible though.  I've been doing my readings and looking up scripture online.  I just don't want to absorb incorrect teachings because of a word added here, taken away there, or mistranslated from the Septuagint.  Since I have no background in Orthodoxy, that's a vulnerability of mine. 






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