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Date of Holy Theophany changed


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#21 Michael Albert

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 03:37 AM

Yes Antonios....you have made your opinion very well known....and you keep doing so. 

 

I am not the only one upset.  I know many who are upset including at least one Antiochian priest.....but they must be obedient their bishop and I understand that.  Furthermore, I am not passing judgment on the Metropolitan. I am questioning his decision to move the date of a great feast. I also understand that we are living in a world of Economia. I do have other options. If great feasts continue to be transferred to Sundays.....we can attend another jurisdiction or a monastery.



#22 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 09:41 AM

Yes Antonios....you have made your opinion very well known....and you keep doing so. 

 

This is, if I may say so, a little unfair: Michael Albert asserts his opinion equally.

 

The Orthodox Church has no one central authority to determine this question. Local Churches do have a variety of customs and practices, and some of these in one Church may not be viewed very favourably in another. At what point must it be said that some practice is going too far? Indeed, what constitutes 'too far' and what would be the implications? There are clearly very sound reasons for maintaining the dates of feasts as determined by the Church. Theophany is supposed to be twelve days after Christmas ('Twelfth Night'); what flows from its being on the eleventh day ('Eleventh Night!')? Might the same be done for Ascension? It is set (following Holy Scripture) at forty days after Pascha and so is celebrated on a Thursday. Can Ascension be moved to the Seventh Sunday of Pascha?

 

For my part, whilst acknowledging the pastoral point behind Met Philip's decision (which does not affect me since I am not of that jurisdiction), and whilst having regard to the common practice in parishes of the EP as well of moving the celebration of some feasts to the nearest Sunday, I still have a sense of unease about this. Is there some lowering of what is expected of the faithful? Does it diminish the importance of the feast? Does this suggest to the faithful that they can lower their own expectations of themselves in terms of effort and sacrifice in conforming to the Church rather than the world?


Edited by Andreas Moran, 08 January 2014 - 09:43 AM.


#23 Lakis Papas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:11 AM

As an outsider, I feel that Michael Albert had some problems with Metropolitan prior to the transfer of the feast (οr so I read what he writes). 

 

One of the virtues is cross forgiveness. Who knows if multitude of believers called for the change of the feast day and if the bishop showed obedience to their request? There are believers who do not have the power to adapt their secular activity in accordance with the ecclesiastical calendar. The strong should support the weak, especially in countries where the official status is non-orthodox. Living in an Orthodox country, where government holidays are in line with church holidays, I understand the problem that believers have in non-Orthodox countries. The pastoral responsibility is huge for the bishop. His priorities have to serve the weak in faith first, and then the strong ones.

 

I think, with the transfer of the feast, the bishop ensures that weak in faith are given an opportunity to become stronger. So in the coming years the bishop will be able to perform the celebration at the correct date, having first given the opportunity to all, strong and weak, to learn that the meaning of the feast is notably the unity/brotherhood of the Church and secondary the devotion to the calendar.

 

The Lord said  “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath."


Edited by Lakis Papas, 08 January 2014 - 10:13 AM.


#24 Michael Albert

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:22 PM

Dear Andreas,

 

Of course I have my opinion on the subject....I started the thread.  It was not my intention to disparage Antonios.  He gave his opinion regarding economios many times.  I was merely interested in hearing other people's thoughts on the subject.



#25 Michael Albert

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:30 PM

Dear Lakis,

 

It is not relevant as to whether I had "problems" with the Metropolitan prior to this issue. Is this a one time event? I do not know. Did moving the great feast of Theophany assure that more people will attend the feast on its proper day of celebration in the future? I pray that it happens.

 

Is this the beginning of the transfer of all great feast to Sunday for the sake of the people who will not attend any Liturgy except for Sunday? If that would be the case, I would be forced to seek another jurisdiction.

 

You also say: "There are believers who do not have the power to adapt their secular activity in accordance with the ecclesiastical calendar."

 

There is no doubt about that. I am one of the fortunate ones who has a flexible work schedule and the ease of pulling my child out of school.  However, Vespers followed by the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and the Blessing of the Water would have traditionally been celebrated on Sunday evening. Why was it necessary to change Monday's celebration of the Liturgy of St Basil the Great....to Sunday morning?


Edited by Michael Albert, 08 January 2014 - 01:40 PM.


#26 Lakis Papas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 04:24 PM

This premature celebration reminds me that the great Greek novelist Papadiamantis wrote a short story about a Christian, named John, who, being tired of fasting, longing to reach Easter ahead of time, began pre-celebrating at the fourth week of Great Lent. So, he went to the church of his village, lit all candles, and began singing Christ is Risen! 



#27 Michael Albert

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 04:49 PM

Fiction or non-fiction?


Edited by Michael Albert, 08 January 2014 - 04:50 PM.


#28 Lakis Papas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 05:34 PM

Papadiamantis was a fiction novelist. But, all of his works are ethographic, inspired by situations, people and locations of his time. I would not be surprised if John (novel character) was a real character.

 

Papadiamantis is the greatest greek novelist. He was also translator of English literature in Greek publications. Papadiamantis was genuine Orthodox Christian, a parish cantor in Athens, and in all his works writes with authenticity about the Christian life in Greece.

 

I suggest his work to any Christian, interested in reading about authentic christian life in Greece during the start of 20th century. http://www.johnsanid...-spiritual.html



#29 Michael Albert

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 05:53 PM

Interesting.  Are his works translated into English?

 

I see in the article where he says:  "I am a genuine child of the Christian Orthodox Church, as it is represented by its bishops.  In another case, however, he is not hindered from criticizing them strictly for their various provocative actions.



#30 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 07:13 PM

We might recall St Seraphim's greeting all-comers with 'Christ is risen!', whatever the day. The Feasts exist outside time and space: perforce, we must celebrate them within.



#31 Michael Albert

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 07:54 PM

Every Sunday is a celebration of Pascha....correct? 

 

So...since the feasts exist outside of time....they can be moved about with impunity according to time?



#32 Richard A. Downing

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 08:12 PM

Having skim read this very long discussion, can I ask this:

 

Did the Metropolitan:  (1) move the Celebration of the Feast, or did he (2) instruct his clergy to Celebrate the Feast on the Sunday while allowing them to also celebrate it on the usual date?  It's not germane what they actually did, it's what he directed that matters.

 

It seems to me that (1) is an unusual exercise of lawful economia, whereas (2) is a blessing for those who cannot attend the usual feast.  If he also prohibited the celebration of the Feast on Monday the 6th January, I would be very very surprised.

 

It would also be interesting to discover if the Metropolitan proposes to move other Feasts, say Nativity, or even Pascha (when it doesn't align with Heterodox Easter, as this year)?  Has he said?

 

I'm not sure we have enough 'evidence' to come to a conclusion, other than that he has upset some people.  Let's pray for him, and for them.

 

Richard.



#33 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 08:24 PM

Every Sunday is a celebration of Pascha....correct?

 

So...since the feasts exist outside of time....they can be moved about with impunity according to time?

 


The one does not follow from the other as is obvious, I am sure, to all.
 



#34 Michael Albert

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 08:51 PM

Hi Richard,

 

I believe he prohibited them form celebrating on January 6.  It was a directive to celebrate the Theophany Liturgy of St Basil the Great during the usual Sunday morning Liturgy on the 5th.  I know of at least one priest who asked if he could celebrate it on January 6th and he was answered in the negative.  There was not an option.  Besides, you could not celebrate the same feast two days in a row, could you?

 

But the question arises once again for those who could not attend on Monday.....what is wrong with attending Sunday evening for Vespers and the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom and the Blessing of the Water for the Eve of Theophany?  And do you begin moving all great feasts to Sunday?

 

PS...Orthodox Pascha aligns with Western Easter this year.


Edited by Michael Albert, 08 January 2014 - 08:52 PM.


#35 Lakis Papas

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 09:09 PM

Interesting.  Are his works translated into English?

 

http://www.amazon.co...r=8-2&keywords=



#36 Richard A. Downing

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 09:27 PM

PS...Orthodox Pascha aligns with Western Easter this year.

 

 

Sorry, I punctuated that wrong. I know they do!

 

I can't comment further on the Metropolitan's directive, but like others I will be interested in what the Holy Patriarch replies to you.

 

As to celebrating a feast on two days, I don't see a problem with it, we celebrate them to learn their lessons in our hearts.   But then I'm not a bishop!   I have to say the 'rightly dividing the word' is not an envious position.

 

Love, and many prayers.



#37 Michael Albert

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Posted 08 January 2014 - 10:21 PM

Hi Richard,

 

I think it is against the canon to celebrate the same feast on two consecutive days in the same Church...but I am not an expert on canon law.  I hope the Patriarch responds to me...if not....I will carry on and continue my battle against the passions. I was a bit scandalized, but I forgive the Metropolitan.

 

In Christ,

Michael



#38 George F.

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 03:14 AM

Is it possible that the (then) predicted extreme cold weather on Jan. 6th influenced the decision?






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