Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

The Bible has no errors. It is perfect.

bible scripture church

  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
124 replies to this topic

#21 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 12 March 2014 - 06:57 PM

Those who are against this I ask where are your Patristic quotes ? There are none.

#22 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:03 PM

This fact is so true and accepted historically by the Church that it is absurd and dangerous to say other wise.

#23 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:38 PM

Aaron, with respect, you are not being clear. Who is against what - #21? And what 'fact' do you mean - #22? I would also be interested in your reply to Antonios's question: which version of the Bible do you consider to be inerrant and 'perfect', and what authority can you furnish in support of your answer?


Edited by Andreas Moran, 12 March 2014 - 07:41 PM.


#24 Phoebe K.

Phoebe K.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 278 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:40 PM

Aaron,

 

I have not read any thing which we who are responding which controdicts that the scriptures are inspired by God and writen under the influence of the Holy Spirit.  however what we are questing is the immoderate assertion of the full inerence and perfection of scripture.  The only perfect word of God I know is is Christ Jesus himself.  The scriptures which we read in translation for the most part (save those who can read the oroganal Greek), is a transtation and every translation involves a degree of interpretation by the translators.

 

the other assertion I have seen is that only within the Church can the scriptures be understood in there fullness, through the sermons and hymolagy of the church which expalins the true meaning.  Prefection is a word I am reluctant to use as only God is perfect and we, but see in a mirror darkly due to our fallen nature.  I would ask you to rather than see us as disagreeing with you as rather trying to moderate what may be a view which is more extreme than many of the church fathers would recognize.

 

I would ask you to prayerfully consider before you respond again and consider what we have said before spouting quotes which we have not contradicted, but rather interpreted in a more pastoral and compassionate way than the strictest scholarly interpretation of the quotes.  Please take a few minuts and do not let passion overtake common sence and scholarship.

 

Phoebe



#25 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 12 March 2014 - 07:55 PM

Aaron, do be careful not set the Bible above Holy Tradition and certainly not over the Church. That would be Bibliolatry.



#26 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:02 PM

I wonder if anyone actually read the article I started this thread with.

#27 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:06 PM

duplicate post

Edited by Aaron R., 12 March 2014 - 08:07 PM.


#28 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 12 March 2014 - 08:21 PM

We have all read the article. It is the author of that article who says elsewhere that the Bible is not 'the last word on faith, piety, and worship', and is not 'all sufficient'. No one here disagrees with what the Holy Fathers say about the Holy Scriptures but you seem to be using them to support a view which seems to us at odds with Orthodox understanding of the Bible if we understand you correctly. It would be helpful if you responded to the questions put rather than avoiding them.



#29 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:09 PM

Without quoting one Church father orEcumenical council you all seem to view your opinion on Scripture not being perfect as if your views were infallible. You give no authority but your personal opinions.

I will stand with the fathers and the historical Church over peoples opinions on a online forum.

Peace be with you brothers and sisters.

Edited by Aaron R., 12 March 2014 - 11:11 PM.


#30 Olga

Olga

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2,821 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:14 PM

Aaron, I would like to see you address the point Andreas has made on Bible translations. His point is significant.



#31 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:17 PM

Bible translations or manuscripts?

#32 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:21 PM

If manuscripts I agree with what st Augustine wrote in City of GOD. That the Septuagint and the Hebrew manuscripts are both inspired.

#33 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 12 March 2014 - 11:25 PM

Translations are translations.

#34 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 13 March 2014 - 12:02 AM

Without quoting one Church father orEcumenical council you all seem to view your opinion on Scripture not being perfect as if your views were infallible. You give no authority but your personal opinions.

 

I will stand with the fathers and the historical Church over peoples opinions on a online forum.

 

Aaron, it has been made abundantly clear that no one here disputes what the Holy Fathers say about Scripture, and what has been expressed by me and others is not mere personal opinion which we all know very well has no value. You are fixed upon maintaining that Scripture is 'perfect' but you have not cited any example of any Church Father using that word (or whatever its Greek equivalent may be). The English word 'perfect' has various shades of meaning and you have not indicated what you think its meaning is in this context. In such matters - and we have had this problem before on other threads - we ought to employ patristic terms in their direct and received translations. You also need to answer the question, which translation of the Bible you think is truly inspired and 'perfect', though, as already said, the Greek Orthodox Church does not place any translation on the same level as the Greek original.



#35 Salaam Yitbarek

Salaam Yitbarek

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 38 posts

Posted 13 March 2014 - 12:23 AM

Reading all of the above, I fail to see why we would not call the Bible perfect, knowing full well that perfect does not mean self-interpreting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Aaron is trying to combat one heresy by establishing the Bible's authority, while others are trying to combat the sola scriptura heresy.

Why don't we all agree that both are heresies and leave it at that?

#36 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 13 March 2014 - 12:27 AM

As far as I am aware, 'perfect' is not a word the Church uses about Scripture, and the word cannot be used in relation to translations.


Edited by Andreas Moran, 13 March 2014 - 12:28 AM.


#37 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 13 March 2014 - 12:27 AM

Psalm 19: 7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

#38 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 13 March 2014 - 12:54 AM

The Greek word τέλειός is translated in the KJV Bible as 'perfect' but it really has the meaning of 'complete' or the end to which something naturally moves so fulfilling its purpose.

 

Psalm 19: 7 The law of the LORD is perfect Psalm 19: 7 The law of the LORD is perfect
 


This should be Psalm 18 (LXX) and the word used is αμωμος which means 'blameless', not 'perfect'.

 

It is not helpful, Aaron, to your argument - and I'm not sure what that is - to cite from something which is not, if the Greek Orthodox Church is right, God inspired to support your view.


Edited by Andreas Moran, 13 March 2014 - 12:58 AM.


#39 Antonios

Antonios

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,039 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 13 March 2014 - 01:07 AM

Reading all of the above, I fail to see why we would not call the Bible perfect, knowing full well that perfect does not mean self-interpreting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that Aaron is trying to combat one heresy by establishing the Bible's authority, while others are trying to combat the sola scriptura heresy.

Why don't we all agree that both are heresies and leave it at that?

 

 

Ah, but how can the Bible be perfect if it is NOT self-interpreting!  :P   :)    But that is exactly some of the arguments drawn up by some from the Reformed traditions who argue that the Bible is perfect and one of its attributes is that it is self-interpreting. 


Edited by Antonios, 13 March 2014 - 01:08 AM.


#40 Aaron R.

Aaron R.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 192 posts

Posted 13 March 2014 - 01:12 AM

Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting souls: the testimony of the Lord is faithful, instructing babes

from the Septuagint http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Psalms/




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users