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Luke 24:50


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#1 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:06 AM

Christ’s Ascension blessing.

 

The Gospel says, ‘Then He led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up His hands He blessed them.’ (Luke 24:50)


I have read that the only Jewish prayer said with lifted hands is the priestly Aaronic blessing: ‘The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: the LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: the LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace’. (Numbers 6:24-26)


I do not know why this prayer is in the singular, though.



#2 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 29 April 2014 - 08:58 AM

I have just seen that the prayer is in the singular (in the LXX and in Hebrew) because it is meant to have personal application rather than be a general benediction.



#3 Ben Johnson

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 08:53 PM

Yes.  The Ten Commandments are also in the singular, at least in the Hebrew, and one teaching me some Biblical Hebrew told me that it is because the LORD is speaking to each individual.



#4 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 03 May 2014 - 09:53 PM

We have to be careful of certain English translations of the Bible. Modern English, unlike Early Modern English, is incapable of distinguishing the second person singular/informal and the second person plural/formal, unlike most languages. Thus, in some versions, we have in Exodus the ridiculous spectacle of Moses addressing God in the informal 'thee' and God addressing Moses in the formal 'you'.



#5 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 07:15 PM

It is only "ridiculous" if one thinks in obsolete English. To the modern ear, "thee" is formal and "you" is informal. If you find that intolerable, I insist that you communicate only in Chaucerian English or earlier forms, forthwith.



#6 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 07:51 PM

That is nonsense - no one has mentioned Chaucerian English which is totally different. Early Modern English is not obsolete: it is used in most Orthodox Churches in English speaking countries including the Russian and Antiochian Churches in the English-speaking lands. It is also blessed by Elder Sophrony (Sakharov). Mistaken understanding by ignorant people is not a basis for the rendering of scripture.



#7 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 07:54 PM

"It is only "ridiculous" if one thinks in obsolete English. To the modern ear, "thee" is formal and "you" is informal. If you find that intolerable, I insist that you communicate only in Chaucerian English or earlier forms, forthwith"

 

To whom? People this side of the pond would find thee old fashioned, archaic, biblical (A.V. and common book of prayer), formal or informal would not come to mind maybe it is different in the U.S.A.  like as to us whom is a bit formal whereas to most Americans I suspect it is very formal and quite old fashioned. But surely then the answer in this case is a two minute dose of education not a some form of  quasi-English.

 

The point is thou/thee is singular ye/you is plural (it was also used post-Conquest to indicate a person of higher social statues but this use was rejected in all biblical translations of which I can think) should one use thou/thee then it should be to indicate such not used to indicate some strange local reversal of Norman English rules on formal and informal singular second person pronoun. What is also ridiculous is differentiating between the Subjective and Objective case for the singular second person pronoun but not for the plural second person pronoun, this again has nothing to do with Early Modern/Modern English it is simply poor grammar. Should one wish to use either Early modern or contemporary English for such things then use it, translations such as those mentioned by Andreas are not one thing or the other but some poor imitation of the English language. 

 

P.S. "Chaucerian English" is regarded as Late Middle English, the Authorized Version (King James Version) ect.. are Early Modern English.


Edited by Olga, 06 May 2014 - 10:53 PM.
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#8 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 06 May 2014 - 08:14 PM

I haven't mentioned any translations save an oblique reference to Elder Sophrony who blessed the translations of the liturgy used at the monastery here in Essex. The language used in their book is scrupulously accurate in its use of KJV-style English. As Daniel says, rightly, a small dose of education would not go amiss.



#9 Ben Johnson

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Posted 13 May 2014 - 03:25 AM

When I read the King James Bible, everybody is referred to as a "thou" or "thee," so when people in modern times reserve the "thou" and "thee" exclusively for the LORD, it seems strange. Some people in my mission do so, but I just refer to the LORD as "you."



 






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