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'Take the Cup of Salvation' Wedding Hymn

cup of salvation wedding

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#1 Anthony Cornett

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 07:59 AM

While this seems to be common practice, is it proper to chant 'I will take the Cup of Salvation' during a wedding if the shared cup is common wine, not part of the Eucharist, as the hymn is intended? I understand that many weddings, at least in America with a largely mixed culture, are performed outside of the Divine Liturgy, but is keeping such a Communion Hymn okay, especially given the didactic potential for nonOrthodox guests who may come from a background that entirely limits the Eucharist to a mere act of symbology?

#2 Olga

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 08:08 AM

I live in Australia, and have attended many an Orthodox wedding, including in Greek, Russian, and Belorussian traditions, over several decades, where one of the spouses was not Orthodox. Never have I come across this deviation from the designated liturgical text.

 

Dare I say what you describe is an American phenomenon?



#3 Anthony Cornett

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 02:41 PM

I am not sure what you are referring to in particular, Olga, but the hymn is chanted as part of the Wedding Service, per the text itself. There isn't any deviation from the text, but rather, the text which specifically refers to the pinnacle of he Liturgy, partaking of the Eucharist, is used outside the context, where no Eucharist is partaken of, but rather a simple blessed cup of wine. Do all of the weddings you are familiar with occur within the Divine Liturgy? If so, that is a wonderful blessing I wish we maintained in the States.

#4 Olga

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 09:46 PM

I am referring to weddings conducted outside of the Divine Liturgy. None of them, across the traditions I mentioned, contained this verse.



#5 Anthony Cornett

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 09:48 PM

What is chanted when they drink of the common cup? 



#6 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 09:56 PM

We are studying the Orthodox wedding service tomorrow at the Thyatira Midlands Ecclesiastical Seminary, the text we're using is that by Fr Ephrem Lash  (http://www.anastasis...uk/crowning.htm) which does state the following

"Then the Priest, taking the Cup in his hands, gives them to drink from it three times; first to the husband and then to the wife, as he chants in the 1st Tone: I will take the cup of salvation and I will call on the name of the Lord". I will try to remember to ask this question tomorrow to see what the lecturer says and post the reply. 

 

In Christ.

Rdr Daniel,


Edited by Daniel R., 19 September 2014 - 10:02 PM.


#7 Anthony Cornett

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 09:59 PM

Most certainly the origin is from the usage within the context of the Divine Liturgy, however I am curious to know if calling this blessed/common cup the 'Cup of Salvation', which is nothing less than Christ, is something to be considered? Or perhaps has already been considered? I eagerly await your instructor's response, Rdr Daniel! 



#8 Olga

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 10:17 PM

What is chanted when they drink of the common cup? 

 

Nothing. The couple each drinks three times from the cup, then the priest leads them into the Dance of Isaiah, while the choir chants accordingly.



#9 Anthony Cornett

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 10:31 PM

Nothing. The couple each drinks three times from the cup, then the priest leads them into the Dance of Isaiah, while the choir chants accordingly.

 

Interesting. It seems like this would be a good opportunity to fill the silence of this moment with some sort of hymn. I would love to be directed toward any sort of pastoral assessment of the purpose of the common cup during the Holy Matrimony, outside of the Divine Liturgy when it is properly the Eucharist. If it is merely a symbolic act of completing a union, it is surprising that no spoken prayer or text is given for the priest's recitation as there is with the rings and the crowns. 



#10 Olga

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 11:45 PM

Interesting. It seems like this would be a good opportunity to fill the silence of this moment with some sort of hymn.

 

The sharing of the common cup does not take long at all. :)

 

I would love to be directed toward any sort of pastoral assessment of the purpose of the common cup during the Holy Matrimony,

 

Here is the text from the marriage service of the blessing of the common cup:
 

O God, who created all things by Your strength, and has made firm the world, and adorned with a crown all that You made: Bless now, with Your spiritual
blessing, this common cup, which You grant to those who are now united in the communion of marriage.

 

Any rubric I've come across for the purpose of the common cup speaks of the sharing of all things in life by the couple now joined as one, the joyous and sorrowful, the good and the bad.



#11 Anthony Cornett

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Posted 19 September 2014 - 11:49 PM

The sharing of the common cup does not take long at all. :)

 

 

Here is the text from the marriage service of the blessing of the common cup:
 

O God, who created all things by Your strength, and has made firm the world, and adorned with a crown all that You made: Bless now, with Your spiritual
blessing, this common cup, which You grant to those who are now united in the communion of marriage.

 

Any rubric I've come across for the purpose of the common cup speaks of the sharing of all things in life by the couple now joined as one, the joyous and sorrowful, the good and the bad.

 

I don't know why I missed this just above the act of sharing the cup. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.



#12 Michał

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 03:22 PM

 I understand that many weddings, at least in America with a largely mixed culture, are performed outside of the Divine Liturgy,

 

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more weddings at DL in the US than outside it.



#13 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 06:59 PM

Most certainly the origin is from the usage within the context of the Divine Liturgy, however I am curious to know if calling this blessed/common cup the 'Cup of Salvation', which is nothing less than Christ, is something to be considered? Or perhaps has already been considered? I eagerly await your instructor's response, Rdr Daniel! 

According to my lecturer, Fr John, originally (i.e. before the marriage service we have now) the bride and bridegroom would (after the civil marriage) arrive after fasting to receive Holy Communion together (followed by a cup of wine) and then receive a blessing from the bishop, later as the marrige service developed it was still done with in the context of the Divine Liturgy, hence the chanting of the psalm verse "I will take the Cup of salvation and I will call upon the name of the Lord" which of course is a "reference" to Holy Communion and which he says is rightly part of the text. I expect the reason for not including it in many palaces is that weddings are not often served with the Liturgy but separately and hence the confusion you speak of may arise. However as it is (according to Fr John and Fr Ephrem Lash's translation) part of the service text, I would argue that it should ideally be sung but then I would also say that ideally weddings should take place during the Liturgy. 

 

In Christ.

Reader Daniel.



#14 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 21 September 2014 - 07:52 PM

Not only weddings. I find it sad that in the church where I serve, wedding parties arrive after the Divine Liturgy for the wedding with no one in that party attending the Divine Liturgy. The same may be said of baptisms/chrismations. I was glad that I was received into the Church during the Divine Liturgy.



#15 Anthony Cornett

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 03:14 PM

Thank you for the update report, Reader Daniel. I realize it's a big area, but do you know Fr. Kristian and Fr. Vassilios?



#16 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:33 PM

Dear Anthony,

 

Presuming you mean Fr. Vassilios Papavassiliou I have met him once when he visited our parish but I wouldn't say that I know him. I also don't know a Fr Kristian. Sorry.

 

P.S. If it is indeed Fr Vassilios Papavassiliou of whom you speak then I believe him and the Fr John of whom I speak do know each other fairly well.

 

In Christ.

Rdr Daniel,


Edited by Daniel R., 22 September 2014 - 09:34 PM.


#17 Anthony Cornett

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:39 PM

Yes, that's the one. I know of him through Fr. Kristian (who was recently ordained a priest). We have enjoyed Fr. Vassilios's 'Meditations' series, as well as the 'Journey' title. 



#18 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 22 September 2014 - 09:56 PM

Fr. Vassilios's books are popular and seem to sell quite well at our parish bookstore especially Journey to the Kingdom and Thirty steps to Heaven.


Edited by Daniel R., 22 September 2014 - 09:56 PM.






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