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Non-Orthodox participation in the Mysteries


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#21 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 08:03 PM

Kosta, people do not 'seek' the marriage sacrament in the sense I think you mean. For a couple of any age who wish to marry, there is only one marriage rite. Are you suggesting that a couple of a certain ago do not marry in the Orthodox Church because the one rite available refers to procreation?

 

No one is 'born into the faith': in a sense, every Orthodox Christian is a convert since everyone who is an Orthodox Christian had to be received into the Church by baptism and chrismation at whatever age.

 

I entirely agree that the Orthodox Christian sacrament of marriage is completely different from any western institution. But you have to accept that marriage does have legal implications at the secular level. That is why we have a civil ceremony before the sacrament of marriage in church but the two are separate so I do not see this as serving two masters as you suggest.



#22 Kosta

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:27 AM

The Church has always had an age restriction on marriage as does certain jurisdictions of the secular governments. There was an order of widows and virgins enrolled at the age of 60. Elderly people marrying in the church is preposterous. It is a mockery of the service. It will have the attendees giggling and cracking jokes.


The overwhelming portion of the service are fertility prayers including a prayer to live long enough to see youre children's children. St Paul makes clear that remarriage is allowed for the younger widows but not the older ones.
How much of the service will you omit and revise to appease the modernists?

#23 Michał

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 12:32 AM

 

What I'm saying is that if anyone actually reads the marriage rite a few things become apparent. The rite is composed of many fertility prayers. Today the laity is so ignorant that quite a few of them are seeking this ceremony at old age. There is an age limit which modernist society simply cannot understand.

 

That's a Catholic approach.



#24 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:00 AM

Kosta, the only age 'restriction' of which I am aware is that the age gap between the couple should be no more than twenty years. But that is guidance. There is nothing 'presposterous' about older people marrying in church. Are you saying it is better that they live in sin? And what about those who marry - at any age, but perhaps at an older age - yet intend to forego marital relations? Did St John of Kronstadt do wrong in going through the sacrament of marriage even though he intended to and did live with his wife as brother and sister? Marriage is a sacrament, not merely a licence for breeding: God blesses the marriage which is to be a way of life in which the couple as partners may make their spiritual journey. That is the essence of the issue of mixed marriages: that the spiritual journey cannot be made in total unison when there is not a sharing of faith and of sacramental life in the Church.


Edited by Reader Andreas, 10 October 2014 - 01:11 AM.


#25 Kosta

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:23 AM

The OCA (and probably the others), do have age restrictions on remarriage. They reject all third marriages of older people based on the canons of a Council held in constantinople in the 9th century. What service would any church used for elderly people??? There simply is NO rite that exists for people who are passed the age of child bearing just like there is No rite for gay marriages even though their proponents tell us their is. If there is a liturgical rite for the elderly please post it up as I've never seen it nor have I ever heard of anyone over 50 getting married in the Church.

Nor was there ever in the past n marriages performed for elderly couples. The limit was 40 years old then extended to 60. Can you imagine have a couple in there 80's where the prayer is read to bless them "with abundant fruit of the womb", for the "continuation of the human race".

During the Byzantine age marriage was 14 years of age for boys and 13 for girls. This entire service reached its form when a young couple most of which were "teens" or in their 20's are getting married, in a society which Orthodoxy was the official religion and also culture and was for many generations.

Edited by Kosta, 10 October 2014 - 01:26 AM.


#26 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:24 AM

A further point occurs: would it be wrong for a couple to marry in church if there was medical confirmation that one of them was infertile? What of converts who had a family and will have no more children? What of the woman who had a hysterectomy for medical reasons? Kosta, I think, is tending to legalism and is leaning too much towards the western contractual model of marriage and away from its sacramental meaning and beauty.


Edited by Reader Andreas, 10 October 2014 - 01:31 AM.


#27 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:30 AM

Kosta: there is one sacrament of marriage. You cannot say that certain people of a particular age or by reason of inability to procreate (and what the OCA says is not determinative) cannot enter that sacrament. Are you saying it is better that they should live in sin?



#28 Kosta

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:32 AM

The marriage rite also presupposes both spouses are virgins, so you wouldn't really know whether your barren or infertile. The remedy was not medical fertility treatments as they didn't even exist 50 years ago. it was those very prayers in the marriage rite that are the treatment. Not at all am I bashing it on western legalisms, Western marriage traditions says they're are no impediments at all, it is the west that taught us that there are no restrictions. Whether its same sex marriage, whether it's a buddhist or Christian marrying each other, Western marriage tells us its all about this mythical experience called "love". No age limits, no restrictions, financial incentives are opened to all, whether they have 5 children or none, all are equally allowed to marry because it is a civil right of humanity. That's silly

Edited by Kosta, 10 October 2014 - 01:37 AM.


#29 Kosta

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:34 AM


Kosta: there is one sacrament of marriage. You cannot say that certain people of a particular age or by reason of inability to procreate (and what the OCA says is not determinative) cannot enter that sacrament. Are you saying it is better that they should live in sin?


Then you will have to study the canons and read the actual service which say otherwise.

Edited by Kosta, 10 October 2014 - 01:38 AM.


#30 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:50 AM

You cannot seriously say that only virgins can enter the sacrament of marriage - what about converts and those entering marriage after the death of a spouse? Infertility can be established medically - it need not be proved by unsuccessful attempts at procreation. You are placing too much emphasis on those passages in the marriage service which relate to procreation. It is not the teaching of the Church (according to Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev) that marriage exists for the sole purpose of procreation. Again: was St John of Kronstadt wrong to marry?



#31 Kosta

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 01:56 AM

The crowning usually has virginity in mind, it is omitted in second marriages. Unless one of the spouses are entering marriage for the first time. What I'm saying is that the rite presupposed two young virgins are coming before the altar.

#32 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:15 AM

The prayers for children and so forth are like other prayers which may or may not be answered, so they are not presuppositions but just that - prayers, as appropriate.



#33 Kosta

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 05:23 AM

gl/hf 

 

There are loads of things happening within the Church that are not really right. If anyone would like to start a schism because of every irregularity he gets to know from the internet there would be dozens of Orthodox Churches popping out every day.

 

BTW, must every thing we do not like be called heresy? Seriously, I think my rector's sermons are boring, does it make them heretical? Our choir sings badly (this is actually an opinion of many people), does it make the choir heretical? Back in time that word had some meaning.

 

 

 

I never mentioned an irregularity from the internet. I said If I personally knew the priest of a parish which I attend knowingly sanctioned and performed such marriages I would seperate from that parish. I may go to another parish within that same diocese. Obviously if the bishop himself sanctions it, you can go to another jurisdiction (in the diaspora) or raise awareness among the synod to take action. 

 

In All sacraments  the priest calls out to God on behalf of the layman as, 'Your servant {name}..."   What baptismal name would the priest use in the case of a muslim?  How is the muslim or jew or atheist or hindu  a servant of Christ?  How have they been initiated into the Body of Christ to permit them the holy things for the holy people?  It is a heresy.

 

In times past and even in certain places today it would not come to writing to bishops, such a priest would be chased out by the laity. 


Edited by Kosta, 10 October 2014 - 05:24 AM.


#34 Michał

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:10 AM

 Did St John of Kronstadt do wrong in going through the sacrament of marriage even though he intended to and did live with his wife as brother and sister? 

 

Actually, he did.

 

The OCA (and probably the others), do have age restrictions on remarriage. They reject all third marriages of older people based on the canons of a Council held in constantinople in the 9th century. What service would any church used for elderly people??? There simply is NO rite that exists for people who are passed the age of child bearing just like there is No rite for gay marriages even though their proponents tell us their is. If there is a liturgical rite for the elderly please post it up as I've never seen it nor have I ever heard of anyone over 50 getting married in the Church.

 

Been to marriage of my grandfather. He was around 65 then.

 

Kosta: there is one sacrament of marriage. You cannot say that certain people of a particular age or by reason of inability to procreate (and what the OCA says is not determinative) cannot enter that sacrament. Are you saying it is better that they should live in sin?

 

It's what Kosta says, not OCA.

 

The marriage rite also presupposes both spouses are virgins, so you wouldn't really know whether your barren or infertile. The remedy was not medical fertility treatments as they didn't even exist 50 years ago. it was those very prayers in the marriage rite that are the treatment. Not at all am I bashing it on western legalisms, Western marriage traditions says they're are no impediments at all, it is the west that taught us that there are no restrictions. Whether its same sex marriage, whether it's a buddhist or Christian marrying each other, Western marriage tells us its all about this mythical experience called "love". No age limits, no restrictions, financial incentives are opened to all, whether they have 5 children or none, all are equally allowed to marry because it is a civil right of humanity. That's silly

 

You are wrong. Being unable to breed is perfect reason for marriage annulment

 

 Again: was St John of Kronstadt wrong to marry?

 

.

He was wrong in not telling his fiancee about his cravings prior to marriage.

 

I never mentioned an irregularity from the internet. I said If I personally knew the priest of a parish which I attend knowingly sanctioned and performed such marriages I would seperate from that parish. I may go to another parish within that same diocese. Obviously if the bishop himself sanctions it, you can go to another jurisdiction (in the diaspora) or raise awareness among the synod to take action. 

 

And if the synod's actions did not meet your expectations? Where would you stop in schisming?



#35 Kosta

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 06:43 PM

Michal you have no idea what your talking about. Are you a troll?  Anyone can google the text of the marriage service and see what it actually says. No one was thinking of elderly people at the time. Also then why even limit marriages to just three? Even Paul says not to put younger widows onto the roles of widows at a young age as they may want to remarry. 1 Tim 5.5 mentions not to enroll those under 60, the Apostolic constitutions say the same because by 60 the need for marriage wanes.  Any reading through the marriage rite makes it clear no one had in mind for this service to be used for people approaching or surpassing that age.

 

Here is from the OCA website on  pastoral guidelines for the clergy on Marriage (it also answers the OP question where it emphatically rejects marriages between Orthodox and non-christians which it does): 

 

2. The “Order of Second Marriage” as contained in the Service Book is to be used when both partners are entering a second marriage.

3. While tolerating a second marriage and in certain cases a third, the Church completely forbids a fourth marital union.
Orthodox practice on this point is governed by the “Tome of Union” of the Council of Constantinople in 920 A. D., which altogether rejects fourth marriage and permits third marriage, with a heavy penance, only to those under 40 years of age, unless they have no children from their preceding marriages.    Holy Synod - Encyclicals - On Marriage - Orthodox Church in America



#36 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 08:00 PM

Some account must be taken of the fact that 60 in ancient times was not like 60 today. At 60 a person was almost at the end of life. Today, many people continue working well after 60 and life expectancy is far greater than formerly.



#37 Michał

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:41 PM

Michal you have no idea what your talking about. Are you a troll?  Anyone can google the text of the marriage service and see what it actually says. No one was thinking of elderly people at the time. Also then why even limit marriages to just three? Even Paul says not to put younger widows onto the roles of widows at a young age as they may want to remarry. 1 Tim 5.5 mentions not to enroll those under 60, the Apostolic constitutions say the same because by 60 the need for marriage wanes.  Any reading through the marriage rite makes it clear no one had in mind for this service to be used for people approaching or surpassing that age.

 

But it's being used. Deal with it.



#38 Kosta

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 09:55 PM

No its not. Never heard of elderly people getting married. The age limit is 60 on women, read the canons or better yet the service book. Or maybe you can adopt an Orthodox ethos, so you know when something is heretical such as church marriages with non- christians and when its not. There is an ethos and conscience which informs us when something is afoul.

Edited by Kosta, 10 October 2014 - 10:00 PM.


#39 Michał

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 10:05 PM

No its not. Never heard of elderly people getting married. The age limit is 60 on women, read the canons or better yet the service book. 

 

The canon speaks of 3rd marriage. I speak of the 2nd. And I personally witnessed a marriage of my grandfather when he and his wife were over 60. Do you accuse me of lying?

 

 

 Or maybe you can adopt an Orthodox ethos, so you know when something is heretical such as church marriages with non- christians and when its not. There is an ethos and conscience which informs us when something is afoul.

 

Been Orthodox for 24 years as well as my entire family. Having a priest, a nun, and a deacon amongst family members. Coming from the area that has Orthododox presence since it was inhabited in XII century... Guess that is not enough.



#40 Olga

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Posted 10 October 2014 - 10:52 PM

Belligerence and judgemental comments such as "Or maybe you can adopt an Orthodox ethos" might fly on other forums, but are unacceptable here. Any further posts of this nature will be deleted, and further moderatorial action may be taken.

 

Please learn to control yourselves.

 

Olga. (forum moderator)






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