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Elder Ephraim of St. Anthony's Monastery's concerns regarding sex and marriage.


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#21 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 10:41 PM

Is she Orthodox?  If she is not, then what does it matter one way if it is Patristic or Satanic?  I fail to see how a false dichotomy plays into the discussion.  I will answer the question anyway.

 

If she is Orthodox, then according to the tradition, she must either be a monastic or be a wife, correct? [Presumably, yes]

 

So if she is Orthodox and working, then she is presumably doing her work either in obedience to her Abbess or in obedience to her husband, correct?  [Presumably, yes]

 

In such a case, the career of being a dentist is Patristic and the wage is irrelevant, is it not?

 

I suppose my succinct answer would be "it depends".



#22 Olga

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 10:48 PM

Seraphim, not every Orthodox female dentist (or, indeed, Orthodox female working in any occupation or profession) is married or a nun.



#23 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 10:52 PM

No, not every Orthodox female dentist is married or a nun.  Why not, if there are only two paths in Orthodoxy?



#24 Olga

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 11:05 PM

So you are saying that all Orthodox females must be married or enter a monastery once puberty occurs? That an unmarried and chaste Orthodox woman who works for a living is contrary to what the Church teaches?



#25 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 11 February 2015 - 11:24 PM

I am not saying that women must be married or entry a monastery once puberty occurs.  I am allowing reason to explore the problem.

 
My wife works.  I am not against women working, even married women.  It is the best we can do in an evil society.  That is completely different from claiming that it is Patristic.
 
What I am against is the parroting of BS statistics and false statements implying that women make less money than men for doing the same job.  I got news for anyone who wants to argue the point: men often make less money than other men for doing the same job, in the exact same societies that have hiring quotas for women.  It isn't just about the sexes.  It is because the system is rigged.  That issue has little to do with Orthodox Christianity.
 
Now the Orthodox Church failing to address the problem of divorce in the exact same societies, especially when children are involved, that is a problem that has everything to do with Orthodox Christianity.  Especially given that in those same societies, women initiate divorce over 70% of the time.  That is a problem with "sex and marriage" that is a big elephant in the room.  And while many are all hot and bothered about homosexual "marriage" (that is going to happen, the Church can't stop it btw), they turn a blind eye at this huge, gaping, hemorrhaging, festering sore of divorce and the roles of the sexes.  But of course, it is so much easier to just attack anyone who brings it up than to actually address the problem.  Ad hominem attacks make us all feel so much better, don't they?
 
If the problem refers to a woman who has finished dental school and then marries, how is she supposed to manage a career, manage a home, and raise her children while maintaining a career and still maintain "the same qualifications and experience" as her male colleague?  Even with wage equality, there are only so many hours in a day.
 
So Olga, are you claiming that in Orthodoxy, there is another way than to be married or a monastic?  Please provide evidence from the scriptures or the Fathers to demonstrate that such a claim is indeed Orthodox.  I have never heard such a statement made on Patristic grounds.


#26 Olga

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 02:02 AM

So Olga, are you claiming that in Orthodoxy, there is another way than to be married or a monastic?  Please provide evidence from the scriptures or the Fathers to demonstrate that such a claim is indeed Orthodox.  I have never heard such a statement made on Patristic grounds.

 

You are therefore stating that a person must be married or a monastic to be a good and proper Orthodox person.

 

So what of the countless people, men and women, who, for various reasons, have remained single and celibate, often for their entire lives? Every parish and community of Orthodox people has such folks in their ranks, many an Orthodox family has such people in it. Are you saying these people are less Orthodox for being so?

 

Then there is the matter of those who have been widowed. By your reckoning, must they enter a monastery after their bereavement?



#27 Olga

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 02:14 AM

If the problem refers to a woman who has finished dental school and then marries, how is she supposed to manage a career, manage a home, and raise her children while maintaining a career and still maintain "the same qualifications and experience" as her male colleague?  Even with wage equality, there are only so many hours in a day.

 

Many an Orthodox woman working at her profession or other occupation has managed to do exactly that. I count many among my friends who have done so.

 

Moreover, Lydia, the seller of purple, and benefactor of St Paul and the early Church, was a successful businesswoman. Tabitha, raised from the dead by St Peter, was a much-loved seamstress. Etc.



#28 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 03:03 AM

You are therefore stating that a person must be married or a monastic to be a good and proper Orthodox person.
 
So what of the countless people, men and women, who, for various reasons, have remained single and celibate, often for their entire lives? Every parish and community of Orthodox people has such folks in their ranks, many an Orthodox family has such people in it. Are you saying these people are less Orthodox for being so?

I made no such claim. All I did was repeat what appears to be the teaching of the Church.  I haven't seen your comments to the contrary in any noticeable way in other threads, and you still haven't given patristic support.  Take it up with the bishops.

 

Then there is the matter of those who have been widowed. By your reckoning, must they enter a monastery after their bereavement?

Widows were married.  That was one of the two options.



#29 Olga

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 03:17 AM

So what of the countless people, men and women, who, for various reasons, have remained single and celibate, often for their entire lives? Every parish and  community of Orthodox people has such folks in their ranks, many an Orthodox family has such people in it. Are you saying these people are less Orthodox for being so?

 

Seraphim, it would be appreciated if you could answer this.



#30 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 03:18 AM

Many an Orthodox woman working at her profession or other occupation has managed to do exactly that. I count many among my friends who have done so.

Are you asserting that because you have friends that have careers that this is somehow Patristic?

 

Moreover, Lydia, the seller of purple, and benefactor of St Paul and the early Church, was a successful businesswoman. Tabitha, raised from the dead by St Peter, was a much-loved seamstress. Etc.

Just out of curiosity, where were Lydia's kids while she was selling fabrics?  I imagine they were with her, tending to the family business.  Nothing wrong with that.  And how many tailors did Tabitha displace so that they could not support their families?  And obviously, neither was a dentist.

 

Forgive me for being frank, because no offense is meant in what I am about to write.  Writing that there were women who worked ever is hardly a defense for large numbers of women now seeking a career and contributing to a huge social problem, which is that Orthodox men are struggling greatly to support their families.  

 

Rah rah women's equality and equal pay propaganda and justifications do not solve the problem.  So-called "no fault" divorce exacerbates it.  The Patristic writings state pretty clearly than men are expected to provide for their families.  Women working is a luxury, not a right.  And when the responsibility of the man is attacked by women flooding the workplace, then divorcing men in large numbers (usually over finances), it really brings to light an incredible hypocrisy in the position.

 

I have seen the product of generations of children growing up with career oriented mothers and rah-rah equality pushers.  The result is not pretty.  In fact, I would be so bold as to assert that the result is devastating to boys, and perpetuates the problem with girls.  It is evil.  And the economies of the world are in bad shape.  At least in the USA, men can't find work like women can.  Perhaps it is better elsewhere... I haven't seen any evidence of it.

 

Your arguments that a couple of women worked a long time ago just don't make sense, especially in light of the fact that there was no affirmative action and no equal work for equal pay laws in their time.  And how does this relate to the conversation in which the roles of the sexes are blurred in the modern day?



#31 Olga

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 03:26 AM

Due to the contentious and aggressive direction this thread is taking, I am locking this thread, pending further moderatorial assessment.



#32 Father David Moser

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Posted 12 February 2015 - 02:34 PM

This thread has strayed off topic again to discuss not the comments originally posted, but rather into the area of social commentary with precious little Orthodox Christian content. That's three (warnings/strikes) and so it is obvious that it is not presently possible to discuss this topic within the limitations of this forum.

Fr David




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