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#1 Paul

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 01:11 PM

Why do Christian believe an archaic bible-god who prefers fresh blooded sacrifices, preferably virgin, over fruit could be the creator of this vast universe?

I keep getting asked questions by athiests, that are legitimate question, which i cannot answer. hopefully i learn from the answers here

#2 Deacon John Martin

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 03:40 PM

Could you rephrase the question in more precise and less polemical terms?



#3 Rdr Thomas

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 04:11 PM

Paul,

 

Atheists who attempt to use the bible against believers are so misguided that they're not even wrong.  The entire basis of their argumentation comes from a misunderstanding of what the bible is and what it teaches.

 

Orthodoxy teaches:

- That "[w]e have seen the True Light"

- That "[t]he Light of Christ, illumeneth all things"

- That The Church is the Pillar and Ground of all Truth

- That Truth is embodied in Jesus Christ

- That Our Lord, the God and Creator of the universe Himself, taught the Apostles directly what the scriptures meant

- That Jesus Christ founded our Church and that He Himself is still head of it

- That The Church would never fail

 

The point of all these triumphal statements is this:  The scriptures were written and preserved by The Church, and for the exclusive use of The Church.  Reading them any other way than what The Church teaches means that misunderstandings will arise.  It also means that if one reads them and come to a different understanding than that provided by the teaching of The Church, then it is the reader who is at fault, and not The Church.  An atheist is unlikely to see the logic in any of this.  My suggestion then is to not engage them on a subject that they are clearly not equipped to debate about.  As atheists, by definition they are unable and unwilling to understand whatever truth you expose to them, and Our Lord's words about "pearls before swine" come to mind.

 

Your question fundamentally is about the nature of God.  It can only be answered by you getting to know Him better.  You will never convince someone who believes that there is no God about the nature of God, because He gives us free will to disbelieve in Him, and won't force Himself on anyone.  You don't argue someone into belief in God.  You have to experience Him for yourself.

 

To be sure, it is true that The Church has a rich history of apologetics.  I would suggest that a seeker such as yourself (this is apparent from your other postings) would not try to reinvent the wheel on apologetics, but use those that The Church has already produced.

 

I would point your atheist friend here for a start:

http://www.earlychri...com/justin.html

 

Specifically, the dialog with Trypho and the First and Second apologies.

 

(edited to add the link to existing apologetics)


Edited by Thomas Hobbs - Athens, 20 February 2015 - 04:25 PM.


#4 Lakis Papas

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 04:41 PM

Why do Christian believe an archaic bible-god who prefers fresh blooded sacrifices, preferably virgin, over fruit could be the creator of this vast universe?

I keep getting asked questions by athiests, that are legitimate question, which i cannot answer. hopefully i learn from the answers here

 

This question is so funny. Do they realy think that we believe in such childish fables?

 

Regarding Old Testament's rendering, an atheist renders Old Testament readings in a specific context. We read Old Testament in the light of New Testament. For example the story of Jonah and the whale is meanigless when it is not connected with Christ's resurrection. 

 

I am not accusing atheists, but sometimes I think that it must be very hard not to believe in the true God and at the same time have no substitute. I think one should invent easy opponents to support atheism.



#5 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 05:07 PM

I recall very early on, during catechesis, coming to the conclusion that from time to time I would have questions that I could not answer or find the answer to. I decided to accept that if the Church had answers they were out there somewhere and so it didn't really matter whether I could find them or not: I believed they existed. Occasionally, I asked my spiritual father a question and he said either that he would not tell me or that I did not need to know.



#6 Rdr Thomas

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 05:19 PM

This question is so funny. Do they realy think that we believe in such childish fables?

 

Yes they do.  I was one myself for many years.  The true nature of God and the scriptures is incomprehensible by them until God is ready to reveal Himself to them.



#7 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 08:07 PM

Why do Christian believe an archaic bible-god who prefers fresh blooded sacrifices, preferably virgin, over fruit could be the creator of this vast universe?

 

The limitation is not with God.  The limitation is in the human understanding.  It is very fitting to put expectations to stone age, bronze age, and iron age people who live in a mostly agrarian society in terms they can understand.

 

As for "virgin" you should know that here at Monachos, we don't talk about sex.  Ever.  If you have a question, you will need to turn it off.



#8 Paul

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 09:32 PM

Sorry I don't understand the last bit, that u never take about sex here ever, can I ask why?
Don't understand what I need to turn off, when I clicked on words, took me to some Mormon play on YouTube.

#9 Paul

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 09:38 PM

It wasn't my question, but joined these groups on facebook, think they are a waste of time, the orthodox ones may be good, even the orthodox - Muslim dialogue, but the atheist - religious dialogues seem to be so fruitless.
I do hear their stuff, and don't know the answers and I suppose it does cause doubt and is I suppose questions I would like answers to.

#10 Mark Harris

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Posted 20 February 2015 - 09:52 PM

It wasn't my question, but joined these groups on facebook, think they are a waste of time, the orthodox ones may be good, even the orthodox - Muslim dialogue, but the atheist - religious dialogues seem to be so fruitless.
I do hear their stuff, and don't know the answers and I suppose it does cause doubt and is I suppose questions I would like answers to.

Paul, I am a convert ( back in 2009) and spent many hours every day ploughing through resources. I have found the Facebook ones confused me as there is very little I could trust that was being said with any authority. I have found the best resources to be the Patristic sources ( there are many in Monachos) the Desert Fathers, the Saints and the Elders . I bought the Philokalia through Amazon and many Monasteries have publishing houses for these texts and many are now in English. I stick with them now and the questions you ask are asked by many throughout the ages. I read and re- read !!! I wish you well on your journey . In Christ , Mark

#11 Paul

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:14 AM

Books are expensive, I have little money, I have purchased Justin martyr dialogue with turgid for 0.99p

#12 Paul

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:15 AM

Trypho

#13 Kosta

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:56 AM

Why do Christian believe an archaic bible-god who prefers fresh blooded sacrifices, preferably virgin, over fruit could be the creator of this vast universe?
I keep getting asked questions by athiests, that are legitimate question, which i cannot answer. hopefully i learn from the answers here


Why should we believe in modern secular humanism which believes spreading western ideologies through, murderous atheist communism, nazism, american bombs dispensed from drones and fighter jets for the promotion of democracy,, financial engineering, secret police psyops from organizations such as the KGB, CIA and Mossad? Who is the practitioners of murderous sacrifice?

Why should I give up my rich traditions of celebrating with family and delicious foods for the saints feast days. Why should I give up the commemoration of my ancestors who invented the architectural marvels of giant rotunda on beautiful churches adorned with art of the likes modern society has yet to transcend.

Why should I give up the joyous celebration of the Ressurection which is accompanied by fireworks and entire villages roasting delicous meats and delicacies accompanied by folk dancing and other activities? Should I be stupid enough to give up this celebration of life in exchange for the celebration of death which secular society offers us in the form of dreary WW2 memorials, "Veterans" days, "May days" and other nonsense?

Should I not celebrate the baptism of my relative's baby which brings together family in our age old Tradition celebrating life and enlightenment once again? Or should we exchange that for the atheists tradition of death where kids are taught to dress up in halloween masks?

#14 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 03:52 AM

If you are broke, the writings of Justin are available for free online in English.  The Dialogue with Trypho is included with all the writings of Justin


Edited by Seraphim of the Midwest, 21 February 2015 - 03:54 AM.


#15 Rdr Thomas

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 02:36 PM

Paul,

 

I know you didn't ask my advice, but if I could offer some it would be this:  flee from online dialogues like Facebook groups and the like.  Don't try to engage other philosophies such as Atheism or Islam, or even other Christian confessions such as Roman Catholicism until you are firmly grounded in the Orthodox faith and have acquired in some measure the "phronema" (mind-set) of the Fathers.

 

The reason is not because Orthodoxy can't stand against such teachings; it is in fact absolute Truth and has nothing to fear.  The reason is that while you are trying to ground yourself in the faith and build up your own understanding, engaging these other ideas is like a wave lapping at the shore and eroding the "building" that you are trying to construct. Just know these other teachings in broad terms.  That's all you need to do to compare them with what Orthodoxy teaches.

 

And I would do what you can to find a priest or other experienced Orthodox Christian that you can engage face-to-face at least once.  Perhaps you could continue your dialog with him via phone or email after that.  The Orthodox faith has a vast repository of writings and teachings, and trying to navigate that all on your own is very difficult.  Find yourself an experienced guide and trust him (or her).   And as Seraphim pointed out, most of the writings are free online.  Also Ancient Faith Radio has thousands of hours of podcasts that may be useful, and they cover virtually every facet of Orthodox life.  I personally found the Our Life in Christ podcast to be informative when I was a catechumen, and the Orthodoxy and Heterodoxy podcast might be a good comparative overview for you.

 

You are being prayed for, friend.  If you choose to join the Church's ascetic efforts during Lent, I wish you a good struggle.



#16 Paul

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 07:03 PM

Thank you Thomas and others, I will take a listen to the podcasts you posted, and gonna unjoin a couple of groups.

#17 Mark Harris

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 09:05 PM

Books are expensive, I have little money, I have purchased Justin martyr dialogue with turgid for 0.99p


Indeed they are Paul but I have found this online and it appears to be the complete text free.
https://archive.org/...TheCompleteText

#18 Kosta

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Posted 21 February 2015 - 11:26 PM

Atheists simply try to bait christians. They believe in fake statistics about the number of dead in the wars of centuries ago meanwhile they believe society has entered a utopia ever since the enlightenment age. Hundreds of years of inquisitions was was a cakewalk compared to the annual murder rates of the most crime riddled cities in the United States. More people were murdered in New York City from 1970-2000 than hundreds of years of inquisitions and that's a fact, check on it. In 500 years of Inquisitions less than 8000 people were killed, in the 1990's more people were murdered on the streets of NYC in a 5 year span.

Now look at how horrible atheist leaders have been. There truly is something defective about atheist politicians. Whether Stalin or Enver Hoxha. So when an atheist brings up his nonsense I tell him to look at the murder rate of Chicago, then he can come back to me.



#19 Father David Moser

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Posted 23 February 2015 - 04:54 PM

...
As for "virgin" you should know that here at Monachos, we don't talk about sex.  Ever.  If you have a question, you will need to turn it off.

The first part of this post was a good addition to the conversation but this last little bit was completely unnecessary. So attend to the first part that contributed and ignore this last bit that is useless. I'm sure that Seraphim will be more diligent in the future in eliminating such comments from otherwise good posts.

Fr David




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