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Are there Saints outside of Orthodox Church ?


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#1 Kostandin

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 03:46 PM

Dear All

 

Christ is Risen!

 

(I am opening here this thread and I was not sure where to open. But the Admins can transfer it to a proper category if deemed reasonable)

 

I have read books from Christians that have been outside of Orthodox Church , and I have found there a very deep love and sufferings for Christ and faith. They have been part of other churches, i.e Anglican, Roman Catholic, Evangelical etc...

 

I am wondering what is their place and position now? Are they in heaven?

If not, how is it possible that such love and pious lives to be lived without the God's grace?

 

(Of course, we cannot be sure of who is in heaven and who is not, but at least we know that the saints are in heaven, So can such persons can be considered saints?)

 

Thanks and Regards,



#2 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 04:27 PM

Many years ago, I asked my late spiritual father a similar question. He replied: 'that is God's business, not yours, but we cannot presume to tell God whom He may have as His friends'.



#3 Kostandin

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 04:44 PM

From answer is presumed : YES :)

 

(However, the problem with this response is that it makes only GOD the reason if somebody can be a saint or no. But we orthodox believe in Synergy. 

So GOD wants that everybody be His friend, but this depends also on human responses.

 

Also, another problem is that if somebody wants to be a saint, he/she needs the Uncreated Energies of Holy Spirit to achieve this.

but these can be found only within the Orthodox Church... So, how is this possible that somebody to become a saint outside of the Orthodox Church?)



#4 Lakis Papas

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 05:01 PM

The Church is not a place. 

 

Same question were made by the Jews: how was it possible for non Jews to become sons of God? 

 

Well, we need to limit and put lines between saints and non saints, according to our understanting. 

 

An example of outsiders that were God's people is Melchizedek.  See  Hebrews 7.



#5 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 05:06 PM

Of course, it depends on what we mean by 'saint'. It cannot mean, in this context, a person recognised as such by the Church. But if we mean it in the sense of one who is saved, then we might have regard to what the Apostle says:

 

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



#6 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 07:33 PM

I would answer by saying we know who are saints, that is those recognized by the Church, we know also there are saints whom we do not yet know, those not yet revealed to the Church, whether some of those unknown are outside the Church as we can see God knows we do not know.  



#7 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 27 April 2015 - 08:29 PM

I very much agree with Daniel.



#8 Kosta

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 06:03 AM

What Daniel said.  Also Christ said, "In my Father's house are many mansions'.

 

By the way I am one that believes salvation is not found outside of the Church, that sacraments do not exist apart from her etc.  When I say there maybe some saved who do not have Her (the Church) as their mother, this includes all the orphans of whatever religion, I make no moral or theological distinction between muslim, buddhist, agnostic or heterodox of whatever 'denomination' as there is none in my opinion. etc. 


Edited by Kosta, 28 April 2015 - 06:04 AM.


#9 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 11:38 AM

I was thinking of Matthew 25:32 - Christ will gather all 'the nations' - τὰ ἔθνη - for judgment and separate the sheep from the goats, those with soft woollen garments and those with hard hairy garments. Not all the nations are Orthodox or even Christian.



#10 Lakis Papas

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Posted 28 April 2015 - 04:23 PM

Dear All

 

If not, how is it possible that such love and pious lives to be lived without the God's grace?

 

Thanks and Regards,

 

This is a trivial misunderstanding. Βlandness, gentleness and piety have been identified with holiness.

 

But holiness is the acquisition of the Holy Spirit. Τhis means that God dwells in the heart of a Saint. Α holy man has peace in his heart and radiates peace to those who encounter him. Sometimes he behaves with gentleness, sometimes he behaves with determination. Always does what is necessary for the salvation of others.

 

The shyness is not typical of a saint, the courage and fighting spirit for the truth is - combined with humility. 

 

But, above all, Holiness is not described with psychological shapes.

 

Fools for Christ, stylites, hermits, anchorites, are some examples of Saints that brake any psychological and social convention and dissolve our spiritual stereotypes.



#11 Kosmas Damianides

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Posted 29 April 2015 - 02:58 AM

"Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say "Lord Lord did we not prophesy in Your Name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" and I will declare to them "I never knew you, depart from me you evildoers." (Matthew 7:21-23). and similarly after being questioned if only a few will be saved Jesus responded " ...Strive to enter the narrow gate, for many will try to enter but will not be able. When the Master rises and closes the door many will be left standing outside knocking and saying "Lord Lord open up for us" but He shall say "I do not know where you are from...I do not know you depart from me workers of iniquity" (Luke 13:24-27).

 

Although harsh, this is God's decision, he knows who is genuine and who is not. If we are genuine about our faith we would be willing to do all that Jesus has taught us and not compromise the truth for our own personal gain or our own personal beliefs. The narrow path is narrow for a reason, although it is not trodden by many, it is the path that leads to salvation. The wide roads and highways that claim to lead to happiness are in reality roads to destruction, they are wide because many people have passed through. DO not be deceived believing that because God is a loving God we can make up our own rules. The Antichrist who is coming will be deceiving many with his outward kindness and "good intentions".






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