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Liturgies of Chrysostom and James


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#1 SeanN

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 03:25 AM

Hi Everyone

 

What are the main differences between the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom and the Liturgy of St. James?

 

Thanks,

 

Sean

 

 



#2 Kusanagi

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 10:52 AM

Main difference will be the length i guess. St James is 3 hours long if i remember correctly from my own attendances.

 

http://www.anastasis...k/lit-james.htm


Edited by Kusanagi, 12 May 2015 - 10:53 AM.


#3 Phoebe K.

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 11:10 AM

The principle difference between the three liturgies used in the Orthodox Church, these being the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, St Basil and St James is lencth.  St James' liturgy is the longest retelling the most of the story of salvation from creation to the end of history, St Basil's liturgy is shorter (it still take around 2 and 1/2 hours to say) it retells the key parts of the story of salvation but less of them, St John Chrysostom is the shortest liturgy having the shortest consecration prayers.

 

The Liturgy of st John Chrysostom is said at most liturges, St Basil  ten times a year mostly in lent and St James twice a year on the two feast days of St James.

 

The liturgy of James is not easy to find is English, and most translations which do according to a Greek Priest I know are not very good.  

 

All three liturgies are very simmaler the main difference is the length of time to do the service due to the length of the prayers, the difference in the Prayers is most noticeable for the Clergy and those in the Altar if many of the prayers are said quietly as they are in most Churches.



#4 Father David Moser

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 01:56 PM

There are significant liturgical differences in the liturgy of St James - both inside and outside the altar.  It is of a more ancient provenance and since it is not often celebrated (once a year on the feast of James the brother of the Lord - and then not universally), very little has changed.  The liturgies of St John Chrysostom and St Basil are essentially identical externally (both are the Byzantine Liturgy of the 4th century when these two saints lived.)  The differences there lie in the private prayers said by the priest which in St Basil's liturgy are much longer (and that then results in slower and more intricate settings for the hymns that are sung during those prayers). There are other ancient liturgies in use in various places - I know the the liturgy of St Mark has been approved for use on the feast of the Evangelist by ROCOR, but like St James it is only served once a year and that infrequently.

 

Personally I have never served St James, however, two of my brother priests in this diocese, both named "James" for the bother of the Lord, have a tradition to get together on the feast of St James and serve the liturgy of St James together.  St Basil's liturgy is prescribed to be celebrated 12x/year - the eves of Nativity and Theophany, St Basil's day, Sunday's during Great Lent and then during Holy Week on Thurs and Saturday.)  When it is paced properly it tends to run a little longer than St John's (say about 1:45 to 2:00).  The Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is served at all other times during the year and will run about 1:30.  Since it is the most often used, it is also the liturgy where more local variation can be found between different Churches and priests. 

 

Fr David Moser



#5 SeanN

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Posted 12 May 2015 - 02:55 PM

Thanks, everyone!

Follow-up question: Given that St. James liturgy was the oldest, was the Chrysostom liturgy introduced for the purpose of shortening the liturgy, elaborating on the Trinity in the language of the Cappadocian Fathers, or what?

#6 Father David Moser

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 02:05 PM

Sean,

 

Your question is somewhat flawed.  It implies (at least in the way I read it) that there was a single universal practice in the Orthodox Church of using the liturgy of St James that was then later intentionally replaced by the liturgy of St John for some particular purpose.  That is not historically the case at all.  There were a variety of different liturgical practices (St James and St Mark for example) in use including the liturgy of the Church of Constantinople, the capitol of the Byazantine empire.  After the legalization of Christianity and its adoption as the state religion of Byzantium,the liturgical practice of Constantinople became the defacto standard for the rest of the empire.  This is why, for example, that the liturgies of St John and St Basil appear pretty much identical externally - they were both using the liturgical practice of Constantinople.  The only real difference between these two liturgies is the private prayers of the priest which are used during the liturgy of the faithful - one set was composed by St John and the other by St Basil.  By a natural process of growth, the liturgical practice of Constantinople (i.e. St John and St Basil) became the standard practice of the empire.  There was no "intent" to phase out one in favor of the other (except possibly for the sake of standardization).

 

Fr David



#7 SeanN

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Posted 13 May 2015 - 07:47 PM

Thanks, Fr. David! Very informative.

#8 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 14 May 2015 - 05:50 PM

As Fr David has explained above, the liturgies of St James and of St John Chrysostom are from different local liturgical traditions. 

 

The principle liturgical rites where those of Rome, Antioch, and Alexandria. The Roman rite includes the rites of Rome, Milan, Gallia and North Africa; the Antiochian rite was split between the Eastern and Western rites, and covered Syria, Persia, most of the Balkans, and Asia Minor, including Cesarea and Byzantium; The Right of Jerusalem is closely related to if not part of the Antiochian rite; The Alexandrian covered Egypt and also had local variations. Originally there were fewer set prayers, with the bishop serving according to the oral Tradition he had received from his predecessor, the prayers began to be set down in response to Arianism and other heresies who's adherents would incorporate such teachings into the prayers of the Liturgy. 

 

The Liturgy of St Basil was originally the Liturgy of the local Asia Minor and Balkans form of the Antiochian rite, which had been set down by St Basil the Great in the Exarchate of Caesarea, and spread to other sees such as Byzantium, now Constantinople, the New Rome.  Certain prayers, namely in the Anaphora, came to be replaced in Constantinople with those of St John Chrysostom some of which he may of wrote others he brought with him from Antioch. 

 

The Liturgy of St James, was the Liturgy of the Jerusalem rite, with its form and many of its prayers ascribed to St James the brother of God. As Father David mentions, due to both the historical local differences and the fact that the Liturgy of St James has not undergone the changes over time that the Liturgies of St John Chrysostom and St Basil have, the Liturgy of St James oft reflects a more ancient liturgical practice. When served in our parish, there is no litanies or Antiphons attached to the start of the Liturgy -the use of such were local practices of Constantinople spread to the rest of the Church- the liturgy starts with the readings and their associated prayers, the Church is laid out according to the ancient practice of Jerusalem with the chairs and a stand arranged before the altar facing the people to from the bema -or bimah- as in the Jewish synagogues,  the deacons vest in the ancient fashion, and the prayers and hymns are also those particular to the liturgy of St James. A translation can be found here http://www.anastasis...k/lit-james.htm

 

A further liturgy that of St Mark, is seldom served in a few places, often in a highly byzantinezed form, we are considering asking for a blessing to serve this liturgy from our Archbishop, but all in good time. I am also personally in the long process of updating a translation of the Liturgy of St Mark for Orthodox use.

 

Finally in terms of content the main difference between the liturgies is in the Anaphora. That of St Basil sums up, in the best way I have ever seen, the entirety of our Salvation. That of St James is far more brief and focus on both creation, the righteous and our salvation. That of St Mark is concerned primarily with creation and the fulfilment of the Old Testament, along with our salvation.

 

 

In the Risen Christ.

Daniel,

 

I have given below the Anaphoral prayers of the Liturgy of St Mark, from after the "preface" to use the western term, for the simple reason that, unlike the others, these are not found easily online, nor are found in a decent translation.


 

Truly it is meet and right, holy and becoming, and good for our souls, O Lord God, Sovereign, and Almighty Father to praise Thee, to bless Thee, and to give thanks unto Thee, to make open confession to Thee by day and night with voice, lips, and heart without ceasing, To Thee who hast made the heaven, and all that is in the heaven, the earth, and all that is in the earth, the sea, the foun¬≠tains, rivers, lakes, and all that is therein;  To Thee who, after Thine own image and likeness, hast made man, upon whom Thou didst also bestow the joys of Paradise, and didst not scorn him when he fell, neither didst Thou forsake him, O good Lord, but didst recall him by Thy law, teach him by Thy prophets, and didst reform and renew him by this fearful, life-creating, and heavenly mystery. All this Thou hast done by Thy Wisdom, the True Light, Thine Only-Begotten Son, our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ, by whom, giving thanks unto Thee with Him and the Holy Spirit, We offer this logical and bloodless sacrifice, which all nations offer to Thee, O Lord, from the rising of the sun to its going down, from the north and the south; for great is Thy name among all the nations, and in every place incense, sacrifice, and a pure oblation is offered to Thy holy name.

 

......

 

For Thou art far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age, but in that which is to come. Before Thee stand thousands of thousands and myriads of myri­ads, of holy angels, and hosts of archangels, and Thy two most honourable creatures, the many-eyed cherubim and the six-winged seraphim, with twain thereof they cover their faces, and with twain they cover their feet, and with twain they do fly; and they cry one to another for ever with the voice of praise, and glorify Thee, O Lord, singing aloud the triumphal and thrice-holy hymn to Thy great glory: Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Sabaoth. Heaven and earth are full of Thy glory. Loudly: Thou dost ever make all holy; but with all who call Thee holy, O Sovereign Lord, receive also our holiness who with them celebrate Thy praise, and say:

 

People: Holy, Holy, Holy Lord of Sabaoth. Heaven and earth are full of Thy glory.

 

The Presbyter makes the sign of the cross over the sacred mysteries and says:
For truly heaven and earth are full of Thy glory, through the manifestation of our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ. Fill, O God, this sacrifice with Thy blessing, through the indwelling of Thy All-Holy Spirit. For the Lord Himself, our God and universal King, Christ Jesus, reclining at supper on the same night on which He delivered Himself up for our sins and died in the flesh for all, took bread in His holy, pure, and spotless hands, and lifting His eyes unto Thee His Father, our God, and the God of all, gave thanks,

Deacon: Amen
Presbyter: And when He had blessed,

Deacon: Amen

Presbyter: hallowed, and brake,

Deacon: Amen

Presbyter: He gave it to His holy and blessed Disciples and Apostles, saying: Take, eat.

Deacon: Pray earnestly.

Presbyter: This is My Body, which is broken for you, and divided for the remission of sins.

People: Amen.

 

The Presbyter prays: After the same manner also, after supper, He took the cup of wine mingled with water, and lifting His eyes to Thee, His Father, our God, and the God of all, gave thanks,

Deacon: Amen
Presbyter: And when He had blessed

Deacon: Amen
Presbyter: and hallowed
Deacon: Amen
Presbyter: And filled with the Holy Spirit,
Deacon: Amen,
Presbyter: Gave it to His holy and blessed disciples and apostles, saying: Drink of it all of you.
Deacon: Pray earnestly again.
Presbyter: This is My Blood of the New Testament which is shed for you and for many, and distributed among you for the remission of sins.
People: Amen.

 

The Presbyter prays thus: This do ye in remembrance of me; for as often as ye eat this Bread and drink this Cup, ye do show forth my death and confess my Resurrection and Ascension until I come.
O Sovereign and Almighty Lord, King of heaven, while we show forth the death of Thine only-begotten Son, our Lord, God, and Saviour Jesus Christ, and confess His blessed resurrection from the dead on the third day, we do also confess also His ascension into heaven, and His sitting on the right hand of Thee, God and Father, and await His second terrible and dreadful coming, in which He will come to judge righteously the living and the dead, and to render to each man after his works.

Thine own of thine own gifts, O Lord our God, we have set before Thee, and we pray and beseech Thee send down from Thy holy height, from Thine readied dwelling place, from Thy indescribable bosom, the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who spoke in the Law, and by the Prophets and the Apostles, who is everywhere present and filleth all things, working by free will and not as a minister, sanctification upon those He wills, by Thy good will, one in nature, manifold in His energies, fountain of Divine gifts, coessential with Thee, proceeding from Thee, sharing the Throne of Thy Kingdom with Thine Only-Begotten Son, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, Jesus Christ. Look upon us and send down upon this bread and upon this cup, the Holy Spirit, to make holy and perfect as God Almighty, and make this bread the Body.

Deacon: Amen.

Presbyter: And this cup, the Blood of the new testament, of our Lord, our God, our Saviour, and King of all, Jesus Christ.
Deacon: Amen. Come down ye Deacons, pray ye Presbyters.

Presbyter: That it may be unto all of us who partake unto faith, sobriety, healing, temperance, holiness, renewal of soul, body, and spirit, participation in the blessedness of eternal life and incorruption, to the glorifying of Thy most holy name, and the remission of sins, that in this as in all things Thy most holy, precious, and glorious name may be praised and glorified.

 

People: Even as it was, and is, and will be, unto generation and generation and unto all the ages of ages. Amen.

 

 



#9 SeanN

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Posted 15 May 2015 - 02:44 AM

Thanks, Daniel, for the informative explanation and for the quotation of the Liturgy of St. Mark!

 

Are there any known liturgies that have been practiced before the 4th century? If so, which? 



#10 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 21 May 2015 - 04:18 PM

Dear Sean,

 

Well the Liturgies of St James and St Mark are both extremely old and are likely to have come from St James and St Mark themselves, though like I said the liturgy was passed on orally and the prayers were not set in concrete. This being said the majority of the texts of these two liturgies remains pre-fourth century. All the liturgies we have now have of course developed to some extent over the years but the basic structure of the liturgy, which I have given bellow, has not changed but is in common in all liturgies and in ancient manuscripts such as the Anaphora of the Apostolic Traditions. Likewise the form of the Anaphora is always close, all of them summing up our salvation and remembering Christ's saving Passion.

 

In Christ.

Daniel,

 

Common Structure of the Divine Liturgy:

Beginning

Readings (In most places originally four, as is still the case amongst the Copts)

The Kiss of Peace

Dialogue:
Presbyter: Let us lift up our hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Presbyter: Let us give thanks unto the Lord.
People: It is meet and right.

Anaphora starting with 'It is meet and right'

The Sanctus (Holy Holy Holy Lord of Sabaouth)

Anaphora prayer following the Sanctus

Commemoration of the Lord's Supper

Epiclesis (Eastern Liturgies, some texts of Ambrosian liturgy, Anaphora of the Apostolic Tradition )

Holy Communion

Dismissal

 

*Also all liturgies commemorate the living and departed but the place for doing so varies according to geographical liturgical tradition.


Edited by Daniel R., 21 May 2015 - 04:20 PM.





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