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Fixed Easter


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#1 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 06:33 AM

Please see the article in the link given; some may already have seen it. Note the reference to the Orthodox Church said to be willing to agree to 'stabilisation if all Christian Churches did' - one does wonder about the accuracy of that.

 

www.pravoslavie.ru/english/89738.htm

 

[PS Can't seem to cut and paste.]


Edited by Olga, 19 January 2016 - 11:01 AM.
Fixed hyperlink


#2 Phoebe K.

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 11:48 AM

I foresee a counsel of Florence fesaco, with some of the Orthodox falling for the false unity and many not, then the strays returning home.  There are also far bigger things to deal with in restoring unity than the date Pascha, and without that it is not true unity.

 

We have to remember that it is not the bishops only who will need persuading, but the monastics (especially the athonites) and the grandmothers of the Church will be the mountain which will not move, that with many other of the faithful who will object on principle to the change.  Then there is the mirical of Holy fire to take into account, since if that is lost due to changing the date of pascha the people of the church would not be pleased.

 

I think one of the best things we can do is pray to the fathers of the Church to help us in this time, especially Mark of Ephesus with his involvement in holding the Church together last time.

 

In the end we must ask ourselves do we know Christ better than the fathers of the Church who wrote the rules for dating Pasha.

 

Another separate discussion, is do we correct the calendar to the observable phonomona of the the universe? If we do decide to put the calendar in sink with the sun, moon and stars, we may as well put the 25th of March on the observable spring equinox as it was in the time of Christ, then we would be 2 days ahead of the secular calendar.



#3 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 02:08 PM

I heard of this the other day on the BBC, my understanding after rummaging around the Internet is that, despite Justin Welby's positioning, this is something which stems from the Coptic Pope; he appears to have been working on this a number of years and has approached the Patriarch of Constantinople and R.C. Pope as well as Justin Welby, as far as I can tell only he (Pope Tawadros) has spoken directly with Patriarch Bartholomew, hence reports of our bishops possible agreement in principle are third hand. Should the Patriarch wish to change the date for Pascha I suspect he would find many of his own bishops, let alone Jerusalem, Moscow, and Georgia impossible to convince, likewise many of the faithful would not put up with it. Increasingly I personally feel we should be distancing ourselves from heretical church leaders if not outright anathematizing (or re-anathematizing) their heresies, we have tried over the 20th century to reconcile them to the Church through understanding and mildness, now perhaps we should try sober truth, for love without truth is mere sentiment.

 

May St Mark of Ephesus whose memory we keep this day intercede for us.

 

In Christ.

Daniel,



#4 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 02:41 PM

I agree with what members have said, and it did occur to me that if/when this comes to pass, even if no Orthodox Church does accept it, it is yet another lurch of the western confessions even further away from Orthodoxy -  in fact, they have lost any sense of Orthodoxy by now. The C of E claims to accept the first four Ecumenical Councils but a fixed date for Pascha would flout the first one (though they are not sure how many they do accept).



#5 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 19 January 2016 - 03:53 PM

Just to add an entirely subjective comment. We have celebrated Theophany here in the Third Rome. Yesterday evening, we went to Uspensky Sobor on Bolshaya Polyanka (hramusp.ru/home.html) - this was formerly a merchant area and so has lots of churches, but is now an office and business area but still with the churches. It is also conveniently on our metro line which counts when it is -15c and snowing hard! This church was closed in 1922 but re-opened in 1994. It is beautifully restored with icons and frescos in 16th century Moscow School style. It has a very prayerful atmosphere. As I listened to the chanting (which was modest and traditional with some znamenny) and observed the faithful, I thought, 'never in a million years will these people accept notions such as this fixed Easter'. As Phoebe hints, the babushki here will run the modernisers out of town!


Edited by Rdr Andreas, 19 January 2016 - 03:56 PM.


#6 Anna Stickles

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 08:34 PM

Definitely a wonderful reason for changing the date of Easter....  ;)   :(  

 The Canberra Times reported in 1929 that the "vagueness" of the ancient calculation is disturbing the business and social arrangement, and therefore effects us all...."
 
That was from 1929, the current reason of wanting to create a global church based on social unity rather than a love of Truth and the Christian Way of life is no better than worldly utilitariansim.
 
It is not modernization that is bad, the Church has always adapted to culture and changed some things in the course of her engagement with and duty to that culture. Living in the past does not allow us to minister to those around us.   It is not so much what we are doing, but why we are doing it that needs to be looked at. Neither of these "whys" has its roots in Christian life and tradition, but rather in worldly agendas. 
 
If you study the Old Believer's movement in Russia, or the recent history of the schisms in the Greek church you can see how an undiscerning rejection of modernization ends up in just as bad a spiritual state as the ecumenists.

Edited by Anna Stickles, 20 January 2016 - 08:40 PM.


#7 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 20 January 2016 - 09:15 PM

Anna, our engagement is with the Living God, His Church and the Feasts which begin with the word, 'Today' not with 'long ago'. We do not live in the past but in the ever present Traditions of the Church. The duty of those in the Church, especially those who lead it, is to change the culture in which it exists at any given time, not to conform to it. If modernisation means compromising Holy Tradition, then it must be rejected, and that can lead not to the 'bad state of the ecumenists' but to authentic life in Christ.



#8 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 02:25 AM

Traditions that do harm should be abandoned.  See the famous short story "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson.  But the tradition of computing Easter on a lunar calendar is doing no harm, other than perhaps some minor inconvenience to the captains of commerce, who can afford to be inconvenienced a little.   There is no reason to change this tradition.

 

It is so unlikely that a Patriarch of Alexandria would propose to abandon the lunar computation that I must wonder whether (a) Pope Tawadros is playing a little prank on Pope Francis, or (b) Archbishop Welby is misinformed about the content of Pope Tawadros's letter to the papal nuncio.



#9 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 06:30 AM

It should be said that there is a difference between 'traditions' and the Church's Holy Tradition of which the calculation of Pascha forms part, and nothing in Holy Tradition can be harmful.



#10 Phoebe K.

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 06:03 PM

From my experience there are individual Bishops and Priests who are inclined to modernism but many who are not, and a large majority of the Laity hold to holy Tradition without question, mostly the exceptions are through lack of Cahtichisam which with the help of the writings of the fathers can be rectified.

 

There can be issues in parishes in the UK and America where there are many ethnicites represented but these are to do with cultural customs and local traditions, normally this can be worked with through a mixture of reasrting Holy Tradition over local traditions and a learning to accept a diversity in practices which are not part of holy tradition.

 

Holy Tradition is perfect and speaks to our true nature, so while we are in our fallen nature it can seem hard but that is due to us not being as we should be not that Holy Tradition is hard, it is light and easy once we give up our own chooses and are obedient.

 

Practically all we can do now is pray that our bishops will not be lead astray.



#11 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 07:38 PM

Re Phoebe's post - Amen!



#12 Kosta

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Posted 22 January 2016 - 09:14 PM

As a lifelong child of the EP, I wish the Church of Greece had a jurisdiction in America. The council of Nicea and the subsequent paschal tables devised in Alexandria using a metonic cycle has already established the calculation of Pascha. This is the only paschal calculation Orthodox christians are commanded to uphold and in turn we are commanded to reject every other formula as our Fathers tell us.



#13 Christophoros

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 12:11 AM

Regardless of who supports or opposes a unification of ecclesiastical calendars or the Paschalion, one pragmatic issue is not to be underestimated: if the Jerusalem Patriarchate were to agree to celebrate any feasts with Roman Catholics, on the feast days the Holy Sites would be overrun with heterodox pilgrims and the position of the patriarch would be undermined.

 

Yet another reason (albeit non-theological and non-canonical) why it won't happen. 



#14 Olga

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 08:27 AM

Regardless of who supports or opposes a unification of ecclesiastical calendars or the Paschalion, one pragmatic issue is not to be underestimated: if the Jerusalem Patriarchate were to agree to celebrate any feasts with Roman Catholics, on the feast days the Holy Sites would be overrun with heterodox pilgrims and the position of the patriarch would be undermined.

 

Yet another reason (albeit non-theological and non-canonical) why it won't happen. 

 

Western and Orthodox Easter coincide every few years, and have done so for centuries. There continues to be an Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem.



#15 Christophoros

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 02:15 PM

Indeed it does Olga. Ask clergy of the patriarchate or pilgrims who have journeyed on those years how things went! Now imagine the same thing happening on every Great Feast (and many minor feasts). The long established order in the Holy Sites would have to be overturned, and the patriarchate would get the short end of the stick.



#16 Christophoros

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 02:33 PM

And thank you Olga for pointing out my overstatement ("celebrate ANY feasts") in my previous comments.



#17 Phoebe K.

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 04:21 PM

There was one year when the Pasha celebrations coincided and the Catholics kept the Orthodox out and the Holy fire burst out of a pillar in the Narthex to great the Orthodox to show clearly where the Lord views the Church to be.

 

Also when I was an undergraduate one of my lectures told us a story of one time he was in Jerusalem for western Easter when ours fell a week later and how a Muslim family keep the peace between the different groups in the Holy Sepulcher.  There are also the occasional reports of disagreements getting out of hand in the Holy Sepulcher, and this would not be helped if we were on the same calendar.



#18 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 07:41 PM

Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of a fixed Sunday in April:

 

http://www.christian...aster/77426.htm



#19 Olga

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Posted 23 January 2016 - 10:14 PM

Indeed it does Olga. Ask clergy of the patriarchate or pilgrims who have journeyed on those years how things went! Now imagine the same thing happening on every Great Feast (and many minor feasts). The long established order in the Holy Sites would have to be overturned, and the patriarchate would get the short end of the stick.

 

Another false analogy. There are Orthodox churches which use the old calendar, and Orthodox churches which use the new. The new-calendar Churches continue to share the holy sites with the non-Orthodox when certain feasts coincide, such as the Dormition of the Mother of God/Assumption of the Virgin.

 

The "problem" you describe is not a new one. Yet, as I said before, the Patriarchate remains, after all these centuries.



#20 Kosta

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 01:31 AM

Bishop Nazir-Ali doesn't like the idea of a fixed Sunday in April:

 

http://www.christian...aster/77426.htm

 

That the article says this bishop is a small but vocal minority is shocking. One would think this entire idea is a bad prank.  Sign that the grace of God is slowly departing from the original stronghold of Christianity towards other regioons. Its all been prophecied that the first will be last but the last will be first.


Edited by Kosta, 24 January 2016 - 01:32 AM.





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