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#21 Christophoros

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 02:28 AM

Another false analogy. There are Orthodox churches which use the old calendar, and Orthodox churches which use the new. The new-calendar Churches continue to share the holy sites with the non-Orthodox when certain feasts coincide, such as the Dormition of the Mother of God/Assumption of the Virgin.

 

The "problem" you describe is not a new one. Yet, as I said before, the Patriarchate remains, after all these centuries.

 

Olga, I was referring to those who journey to the Jerusalem Patriarchate to celebrate feasts as they are celebrated by the patriarchate. Plus, while stating the obvious, you're missing the more important point. The fact is a common Pascha will not happen, not only because of objections of the Jerusalem Patriarchate, but the Moscow Patriarchate (which numerically constitutes about half the Church) and the Holy Mountain as well. 



#22 Christophoros

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 02:52 AM

Primates call for a common date for Easter in trouble  23 Jan 2016


Edited by Christophoros, 24 January 2016 - 02:53 AM.


#23 Kosta

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Posted 24 January 2016 - 02:14 PM

Its also obvious most clergyman could care less about a coherent liturgical calendar. Certain feasts are movable and others are not. The greeks have even lined up their secular holidays with the liturgical calendar. They have a made up a fabricated date for their Independance from the Turks having pushed the actual date back so it can coincide with the feast day of the Anunciation!

#24 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 01:06 AM

And they moved the feast of the Protection of the Mother of God to 28 October.



#25 Olga

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 07:02 AM

And they moved the feast of the Protection of the Mother of God to 28 October.

 

Yet the new service written for the feast is not at all nationalistic. Its themes and content are faithful to the original.



#26 Olga

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 07:21 AM

Olga, I was referring to those who journey to the Jerusalem Patriarchate to celebrate feasts as they are celebrated by the patriarchate. Plus, while stating the obvious, you're missing the more important point. The fact is a common Pascha will not happen, not only because of objections of the Jerusalem Patriarchate, but the Moscow Patriarchate (which numerically constitutes about half the Church) and the Holy Mountain as well. 

 

Christophoros, no-one here is supporting a fixed date for Easter, least of all me.

 

I am pointing out the fallacy of your argument that such a common date would create "chaos" at the sites in the Holy Land, and undermine the authority and standing of the Jerusalem Patriarchate. History shows that, even when the dates for Holy Week and Easter do coincide for Orthodox and non-Orthodox, as has been happening over several centuries, without any real undermining of the patriarchate.

 

There are far more solid reasons to be against a fixed date for Easter as proposed in the OP than the reason you expressed.



#27 Christophoros

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 02:38 PM

Olga wrote:

 

"There are far more solid reasons to be against a fixed date for Easter as proposed in the OP than the reason you expressed."

 

You are quite right that there are far more solid reasons - theologically and canonically - than what I mentioned. However, anyone who underestimates the existential and material reason I cited is being knowingly or unknowingly very naive. Having known clergy who previously served in the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem, the threat of being overrun by papal authorities and pilgrims in such a scenario is very real, and is an issue the patriarchate is well aware of.



#28 Father David Moser

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 04:36 PM

There was one year when the Pasha celebrations coincided and the Catholics kept the Orthodox out and the Holy fire burst out of a pillar in the Narthex to great the Orthodox to show clearly where the Lord views the Church to be.

Actually this is incorrect.  There was an occasion where the Armenians managed to lock the Orthodox out of the Holy Sepulcher, and the Armenian patriarch entered to await the descent of the Holy Fire. However, the Holy Fire did in fact descend outside the Church jumping out of one of the door pillars to light the candles of the Orthodox patriarch.  The scar of this event (which is not at all recent btw - I forget the year) can still be seen on the left lintel of the door into the complex where the Holy Sepulcher and the Church of the Resurrection are.

 

Fr David



#29 Phoebe K.

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 05:13 PM

Father,

 

Thank you for the correction father, I remembered the event but not the details as it has been a couple of years since I heard about it.

 

 

The point I was trying to make was that we need to Holy Spirit in our worship rather than what is humanly preferable, since our fallen preferences do not help us see the truth.

 

Phoebe



#30 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 25 January 2016 - 07:02 PM

It happened in 1579.



#31 Olga

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Posted 26 January 2016 - 12:26 AM

 However, anyone who underestimates the existential and material reason I cited is being knowingly or unknowingly very naive. Having known clergy who previously served in the Russian Ecclesiastical Mission in Jerusalem, the threat of being overrun by papal authorities and pilgrims in such a scenario is very real, and is an issue the patriarchate is well aware of.

 

Non-Orthodox pilgrims have been flocking to Jerusalem for many centuries. It is not a recent phenomenon. And the patriarchate continues.



#32 Loucas

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 03:04 PM

All so true. The confession of our true faith. I too doubt any Patriarch or faithful Orthodox Christian would even entertain the idea of a unified date. As all have mentioned even the Romans use the Church of the Resurrection during their Easter, however, year after year the Uncreated light comes on the very eve of Orthodox Pascha, and is that not as has been pointed out by Phoebe, that is God showing in a most positive and dramatic way, the Ortho Doxos. 



#33 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 04:58 PM

To support what Loucas wrote, I recall that the turning of the flow of the River Jordan occurs only on old calendar Theophany.



#34 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 03:31 PM

Actually this is incorrect.  There was an occasion where the Armenians managed to lock the Orthodox out of the Holy Sepulcher, and the Armenian patriarch entered to await the descent of the Holy Fire. However, the Holy Fire did in fact descend outside the Church jumping out of one of the door pillars to light the candles of the Orthodox patriarch.  The scar of this event (which is not at all recent btw - I forget the year) can still be seen on the left lintel of the door into the complex where the Holy Sepulcher and the Church of the Resurrection are.

 

Fr David


 

 

The Armenians tell an equal and opposite tale.  Four times every 532 years Armenian old-calendar Easter differs from Greek old-calendar Easter.  On one such occasion, according to Kirakos Ganjakets'i:

 

 [In the year 640 of the Armenian Era (1191)] because of this argument between Armenians and Georgians, Queen T'amar and sparapet Zak'are sent some one of the great Georgian princes and likewise one of the Armenians to Jerusalem prior to Easter, to learn the truth. The verdict was to be given by the radiant lamp on the Holy Sepulcher of Christ which, they say, at the request of Gregory Illuminator of the Armenians (with no assist from human hands or tangible fire), is lit up by the command of God each Easter. It happens to this day.
 
However, the overseers of the city, who were Tachiks, asked the Christians: "When is your Easter?" Those who were Greek and other denominations replied: "This Sunday." But the Armenians said: "Not this Sunday, next Sunday." Now the Tachik overseer was a wise man and so ordered all the lights in that temple extinguished, the doors closed and sealed with his ring, and he forbade anyone to enter, in order to determine which group was right.
 
Now when the day arrived and had passed into evening, they awaited the illumination of the lamp. When it did not light up, the prince ordered all except the Armenians to be insultingly removed and severely beaten as ignorant and false people. When a week passed and the next Sunday (which the Armenians had said was Easter) arrived, while they were praying at the tenth hour, [divine] inspiration came upon them and at once the lamp lit up without human hands touching it. The Armenians were jubilant. Once more the Tachiks beat the others, and everyone praised the wisdom and faith of the Armenians while they derided and jeered at the Greeks in all the cities under Tachik rule. The men who had been sent by the Georgian monarch and by the general observed this, returned and related what they had seen. The great general Zak'are rejoiced as did all the Armenians in the [Georgian] army. And the true faith of the Armenians was strengthened further.

The next disagreement between the two forms of the old calendar will be in 2071.


Edited by Timothy Phillips, 28 February 2016 - 03:32 PM.


#35 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 04:04 PM

Oops. The correct date is year 645 of the Armenian Era, the Spring season of which corresponds to the Springtime of A.D. 1197.



#36 Loucas

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 10:41 PM

I have read so many accounts of the Uncreated light coming and always, even centuries ago on the eve of Orthodox Holy Pashca. The Feast, as everyone knows is movable, yet the light comes the Night of Holy Pashca. This does not happen by inspiration from the Patriarch or faithful, this is God showing us the date of the resurrection. I am having trouble with copy/paste, sorry, but I have a picture of the column Fr. David is referring to. Many of the accounts are from Muslims, not Orthodox. So it is not a Greek or Armenian dispute, it is a fact, a historical reality. Orthodox do not call the Church, the Holy Sepulcher or Church of the Crucifixion, but the Church of the Resurrection. Sorry, I for one have not heard the Armenian tail, but I do know there are centuries of accounts that correspond with what will begin in a couple weeks. 2016 will again have the same account and it will occur at Pascha. Have a blessed and rewarding Lent.



#37 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 11:35 PM

Just to clarify, the miracle of the holy light occurs early (about 2pm) in the afternoon of Holy Saturday. Thus, it occurs before the liturgical start of Pascha. The holy light is transported to other places: in particular, a Russian airplane waits for the holy light to be brought to it and the plane flies straight to Moscow. A few years ago I was in the cathedral at Butovo, Moscow, for Pascha and before midnight the holy light was brought and given to the  presiding priest who used it to make the Paschal light from which we lit our candles.



#38 Loucas

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 02:40 PM

That can never be replaced, taking the actual uncreated ligth, the same light that was the burning bush, the light of Christ's transfiguration, to your home to bless you and your family. Truly an amazing Pascha for you.



#39 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 05:14 PM

'Just as we need to take great care when taking the holy light to our homes, so we need to take great care to preserve the grace of Pascha in our hearts.' - Bishop Irenaeos.



#40 Lakis Papas

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 07:00 PM

There are many "miracles" taking place in Orthodox Ecclesiastic practice. They happen because Orthodox people pray for them. Not because the time is right. We as well celebrate Easter whenever we like. We do not follow the days, we bring blessing to days and times through men and women praying for the blessing of the world.






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