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#101 Kosta

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 08:13 AM

Now, that we cleared this little side topic, I still don't see how the Holy Light is showing us the specific date when to celebrate Pascha. Did the Patriarch ask some weeks ago for the Holy Light to descend and it didn't? I am not aware of such an occurence.

 Some claim something akin to what you are describing occured in 1970. There was an introduction of the new julian calendar in 1969 in the JP, Holy Fire did not descend that year, so the JP immediately changed back to the Julian:

 

 

And, in 1969–70, the Orthodox patriarch of Jerusalem, Benedict, introduced the Revised Julian calendar prompted by the Geneva-based World Council of Churches, which changed the calculation of the date of the event. That same year, the Holy Fire did not appear at the Holy Sepulchre. The original ecclesiastical chronology (the Eastern Orthodox Church calendar) with the original calculation of the date was immediately restored, and the Holy Fire recommenced appearing the following year and thereafter. The Appearance of Holy Fire at Pascha

 

 

The date or Pascha is calculated according to the formula set forth by the first ecumenical counsel by the Patrichate of Antioch.  The Holy Light is a conformation rather than the things which decides the dating.

 I think you mean to say Patriarch of Alexandria. 


Edited by Kosta, 17 April 2016 - 08:24 AM.


#102 Dimitris

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 10:07 PM

Actually, the question of Julian calendar ("old calendar") and revised Julian calendar ("new calendar") does not affect the calculation of Pascha. It is called revised Julian calendar, and not Gregorian calendar, because it does not change the calculation of Pascha.

#103 Kosta

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 02:07 AM

The incident of 1970 was blamed on the adoption of the revised menaion. That is the holy Fire did not come down as a sign that the fixed feasts should also be based on the Julian calendar not on a tampered calendar.

#104 Dimitris

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Posted 18 April 2016 - 04:58 AM

What do we then do with the miracle of the holy snakes of the Panagia, which appears every year on the new calendar feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos?

#105 Kosta

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 03:52 AM

The snakes originally would surface based on the old reckoning. Since the snakes also appeared when the calendar switch over occured, the locals saw it as pleasing to God and adopted the revised calendar. The deciding factor for accepting the revised calendar was whether the snakes would appear on the new date. The thing is the snakes will appear on any day within a few weeks of mid august. You can put the Koimissis in the first week of August (village tradition says the hatchlings tend to first surface on Aug 5th) or put it on September 1 and they will appear. It is the church bells which stir up the newly hatched snakes to comeout and head for the church. There is also a reported snake festival the day before Aug 15th where the youth collect any baby snakes they find and deposit them at the church. Again such a festival can occur any day in August.

Edited by Kosta, 19 April 2016 - 03:55 AM.


#106 Dimitris

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 08:34 AM

I think I don't get the message of what you are saying.

 

My question is simple: Now that we've seen miracles occur on both new calendar (Holy Snakes) and old calendar (Holy Fire, but we have to say it's the same date on new calendar), do you think God trough these miracles wants to point us to a specific calendar system, or do you think these miracles appear due to the very fact that Orthodox Christians are celebrating a feast?



#107 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 10:26 AM

Perhaps God is not much bothered about thirteen days. The observing of feasts on the Julian calendar and the Revised Julian calendar respectively is one thing, but a fixed date for Pascha is another matter altogether since (as already said) it totally ignores either calendar for the sake of secular convenience and would grossly distort the cycle of feasts and fasts which are based on the date of Pascha. One could ask 'what does it matter so long as the feasts are celebrated?', but I think the Church in her wisdom gave a certain rhythm of feasts and fasts to the year which sets our year apart from the secular world. We have seen what happened to Christian confessions in the west when they modernised. If someone asks me, as some have done on occasion, 'what do you do in the Orthodox Church?', I reply that we continue to do what everyone used to do. If changes as drastic as a fixed date for Pascha and other changes are introduced, that reply would not longer be valid.


Edited by Rdr Andreas, 19 April 2016 - 10:29 AM.


#108 Loucas

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 11:42 AM

So I try to reply with as simple and clear a statement as I can, I will again explain that I clearly never stated or even implied that the Holy light showed which was the correct method of dating Pascha, other than saying it is clear that by the Miracle which occurs each year on the Orthodox Holy Saturday, God is showing that Orthodoxy is the correct and truthful faith. And also, I am not making this so, or this is not my doing, but since I would have to be blind to not see this truth which has occurred every year, I only thank the Lord for curing my blindness and opening my eyes to His Truth.



#109 Olga

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Posted 19 April 2016 - 01:02 PM

Perhaps God is not much bothered about thirteen days. The observing of feasts on the Julian calendar and the Revised Julian calendar respectively is one thing, but a fixed date for Pascha is another matter altogether since (as already said) it totally ignores either calendar for the sake of secular convenience and would grossly distort the cycle of feasts and fasts which are based on the date of Pascha.

 

I doubt that there would be much disagreement over this statement by knowledgeable Orthodox over this. On the matter of the thirteen-day discrepancy for fixed feasts, there is ample evidence for the grace of God acting in the Churches which follow either liturgical calendar for the fixed feasts.

 

 

  One could ask 'what does it matter so long as the feasts are celebrated?', but I think the Church in her wisdom gave a certain rhythm of feasts and fasts to the year which sets our year apart from the secular world. We have seen what happened to Christian confessions in the west when they modernised. If someone asks me, as some have done on occasion, 'what do you do in the Orthodox Church?', I reply that we continue to do what everyone used to do. If changes as drastic as a fixed date for Pascha and other changes are introduced, that reply would not longer be valid.

 

I would temper this statement with the fact that there are indeed feasts on the revised Julian calendar which coincide with the dates of equivalent feasts celebrated by non-Orthodox churches, such as Christmas, Epiphany, etc. Christmas in particular has become largely a secular observance. However, this cannot, and should not, stand in the way of the observance of the Nativity of the Lord by Orthodox people whose jurisdictions use the revised Julian calendar.

 

Moreover, there are ample examples of the grace of God manifesting itself in the Orthodox Churches which use the new calendar, as there continue to be in the Churches which use the Julian calendar. What unites them all is the Paschal cycle, which underpins most everything in our liturgical life.






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