Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Council in Crete this month


  • Please log in to reply
45 replies to this topic

#21 Phoebe K.

Phoebe K.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 278 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 09:23 AM

I am no specialist on the Counsels of the Church, but have read many of them in studying eccleisology, I would like to know what this bishop is basing his assertion on? since I remember no basis for this clam in the texts of the fathers.  Rather that each Orthodox congregation round its Bishop is the fullness of the Church, and by extension each liturgy served is the fullness of the Church as it is served only once outside of time.  The Celebration of the Eucharist is the fullness of the church or why else would we send away the unbaptized and those under penance before the recital of the Symbol of faith and the Great enternce?



#22 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 10:29 AM

If the report of what this bishop says is accurate, it is against everything I was taught about the Church and some would call it heresy.



#23 Ryan

Ryan

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 837 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 01:51 PM

Ryan, would you be able to provide examples of what you mean when you say, 'Met Hierotheos and Fr John Romanides, they have some very peculiar fixations and narratives which might seem very incisive and radical now but which do not hold up to scrutiny. This heavy investment in defining ourselves against "the West" creates a distorted image of our own tradition'.

Sure. The constant discussion as Orthodoxy as essentially a "cure for the sickness of religion" is a very strange obsession with them. Perhaps this esoteric language was crafted to raise eyebrows and get attention but it's a vacuous gimmick at the end of the day.

See Fr. John Romanides' discussion of Saint Augustine and the Franks for some very laughable historiography.

#24 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 02:15 PM

I don't know about Fr John Romanides but I have read with interest and appreciation the books of Met. Hierotheos. He bases himself upon the Holy Fathers, and the notion that sin is a sickness of the soul is found in, for example, St John Chrysostom, and the parable of the Good Samaritan is seen as a type of Christ as Healer and the Church as a hospital for the cure of souls. In general, see Orthodox Psychotherapy. Note also that before we receive Holy Communion, we pray that it be for the healing of body and soul. I have not come across the expression, 'cure for the sickness of religion' but it is common to say that the Orthodox faith is not a 'religion', meaning a human construct, but is, quite simply, the Truth.


Edited by Rdr Andreas, 23 June 2016 - 02:21 PM.


#25 Anna Stickles

Anna Stickles

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,365 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 02:16 PM

So, it seems that the final documents will be released despite the fact that the Russians refused to join the Holy Assembly? Or the papers will be send to Moscow, to get their signatures, too... :)

This is how all the other councils worked.  The various leaders had to sign off on them, sometimes this did not happen right away.

 

Much of the mainline press, and unfortunately the EP's press is treating the council as if it has authority in and of itself. However as Met. H and many others who understand the patristic ecclesiology  have stressed, there is not a top down authority in Orthodoxy, rather the council will be accepted or not over time according to the conscience of the Church as a whole. If the Russian or Bulgarian hierarchy refuses to accept and enforce the documents,because they see them as heretical, or merely poorly worded and irrelevant, then this is within their authority. No council in and of itself has any kind of absolute authority, it has authority in as much as it is freely accepted by all the bishops. If enough bishops accept this, and consider it important enough, then they may cease to commemorate in the diptychs those who do not, a schism could occur.  If we look at Chalecedon, the majority of the patriarchs and bishops accepted the council and it's documents and then excommunicated those who were teaching things contrary to this.

 

This council though is not a council of that type. There is no heresy being discussed, there is no anathemas or excommunications likely since the EP who is leading it has a politic of being tolerant and inclusive.  He will simply continue to accuse and blame those who are not cooperative, not excommunicate them. What looks like might happen is that this council will become an international assembly of patriarchs, similar to our assembly of bishops here in the states. http://www.pravoslav...lish/94555.htm  This could be a good thing and be a forum for continued discussion of various matters.   It won't have any more authority over the various autocephelous churches though, then say the UN has over the United States.  It is interesting, the Church has always administratively adapted to the culture it lives in, and maybe this is what is in process now. The Romanian Patriarch's comments reflect this I noticed. http://www.pravoslav...glish/94513.htm

 

I think what we have to be wary of is false messages about the council and it's meaning. It is great, holy, and pan-Orthodox only in as much as it is truly within the faith and life of the Church. 

 

I also think that we have to avoid the post-modern lie of striving for a false image of peace. Life in a fallen world is messy. There are differences of opinion, there are breakdowns in communication, etc. this is a matter for patience and humility, not for accusations, nor for trying to put out a false image of perfection to show off to world opinion. Our witness to the world comes not from a false picture of our own perfection and unity, but rather as people come to recognize the presence of Christ in His Church.

 

Christ comes to us in our fallen existence, and is present within this in a saving way. He leaves weaknesses, faults and problems, not making things perfect in the way we want because we are still in need of correction and teaching. The Gospels don't try to cover up all the blunders of the Apostles, but rather show us how Christ is patient with them, and present with them in power even in the midst of human waywardness.



#26 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 615 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 02:43 PM

Synods and dogmas are not necessary for the Church. They become in existence because we produce a social structure as a side effect of socializing Church.

The social structure that is following the Church is spiritually immature. It needs laws, orders, explanations, logical theories.

The Church is required to offer answers to questions that are asked by the influence of devil.

The only proposal of Church is : "follow me".

#27 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 615 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 02:48 PM

Sure. The constant discussion as Orthodoxy as essentially a "cure for the sickness of religion" is a very strange obsession with them. Perhaps this esoteric language was crafted to raise eyebrows and get attention but it's a vacuous gimmick at the end of the day.

See Fr. John Romanides' discussion of Saint Augustine and the Franks for some very laughable historiography.


Fr Romanidis proposed a new way into approaching patristic texts and into understanding the history in a new context. You have any right to disagree but I do not understand why you underestimate him.

#28 Ryan

Ryan

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 837 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 03:09 PM

He presents his "new way" as if it's the timeless teaching of the Church. A lot of people read these texts by him or Met Hierotheos and think they have uncovered some traditional Orthodox teaching when in fact it is an ideological mystification born of 20th century polemics and anxieties.

#29 Phoebe K.

Phoebe K.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 278 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 03:52 PM

I have studied a reasonable amount of the fathers and Metropolitan Hierotheos is constant with their teachings on the Passions, his teaching is clearly based on that of St John Clamamcas and other monastic fathers, he also references them a lot.  The Metropolitan's writings are also in accord to writings of recent fathers like St Porphyrios.

 

Rather than discussing the details on one not especially controversial bishop we should be a little more concerned about the proclamations by some bishops in support of the ecumenical movement or changing the received eccleseology of the Church.  Some of the documents before the counsel this week are very problematic and have been theologically pulled to peaces by many theologians who are well grounded in the writings of the fathers.



#30 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 615 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 05:43 PM

Met Hierotheos' article for his teacher Fr Romanides:  http://www.johnsanid...-romanides.html



#31 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 615 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 05:45 PM

Press Briefing: Thursday, June 23, 2016 - Holy and Great Council 

 

https://youtu.be/9olvBGmiF2g



#32 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 615 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 05:51 PM

Photo of Mr Pavlopoulos, President of Greek Republic, during the Service of Pentecost at the Holy and Great Synod at Crete.

 

a990f54902bea791a8e03e2ad0eb37b6_L.jpg


Edited by Lakis Papas, 23 June 2016 - 05:52 PM.


#33 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 23 June 2016 - 08:57 PM

Just to say that I identify myself with Phoebe's comments at her post #29.



#34 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,516 posts

Posted 24 June 2016 - 04:26 AM

There is this from Met. Kallistos (Ware) which I think is helpful.
http://www.ancientfa...d_great_council


I'm really not impressed by Metropolitan Kallistos. He doesn't seem able to give a definate Orthodox response. These texts cannot be defended using the Patristic tradition which is precisely no Patristic evidence is ever given.
It's no surprise that the entire basis of the modernists comes from a flawed paper written by George Florovsky (who may have changed his mind on it later in life). This is where the laity needs to raise their voice and truly give the Orthodox response.

#35 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 24 June 2016 - 01:59 PM

My point, I suppose, was that Met. Kallistos's piece may be helpful to some, perhaps ex-Anglicans who still have the typical 'let's be nice to everyone and be inclusive' mind set and who probably thought this Council was an altogether good thing, especially if it was ecumenical in relation to heterodox confessions. One Orthodox ex-Anglican I know was surprised that Met. Kallistos had anything other than enthusiasm for this Council. I am not His Eminence's most ardent fan, and I go along with the articles by Met. Athanasios of Limassol and Met. Hierotheos and their ilk on this matter.



#36 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,516 posts

Posted 25 June 2016 - 05:41 PM

I liked what the Metropolitans of Limasol and Nafpaktos had to say. Yet the revision of the swiss text did not take into account what they said. They just watered it down abit. Either there needs to be a new council presided over by the Orthodox to condemn this coincil or we in the greek church have to make a decision.

#37 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 615 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 26 June 2016 - 09:21 AM

The Council is over.

I ask myself why 100 years of preparation were necessary for this Council.

I have no answer.

#38 Lakis Papas

Lakis Papas

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 615 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 26 June 2016 - 09:58 AM

Council = synod from the Greek word σύνοδος.

The greek word is composite from συν + οδός which means share + path.

Literally synod = sharing same path. For example we have the synod of planets when planetic orbits seem to cross one another.

In this context synod is a meeting where different people find themselves to share the same path, not by making agreements, but by the ways of their paths of life cross and are identical and similar.

Synod is not about laws, canons, agreements, declarations. It is about revelation of living in the same way as others brothers in Christ, it is a confirmation received from others that we share with them the same path of live in Spirit.

Therefore, synod is not a truth seeking theological meeting, it is a meeting of shared experience in Spirit.

Synod is a meeting of persons who have experienced Spiritual path of life and confirm it with brothers that share this same experience.

The catholicity of the same experience provides makes synodic revelation valid and true.

#39 Phoebe K.

Phoebe K.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 278 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 26 June 2016 - 03:34 PM

Metropolitan Siluan of the Antiochian Archdiocese of the British Isles and Ireland has released a statement about the counsel which is posted in English of the archdiocese website here: http://www.antiochia...-council-crete/

 

We shall have to wait and see the results of the counsel but we can hope and pray that some bishops will stay true to the fathers of the Church.



#40 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,516 posts

Posted 26 June 2016 - 07:05 PM

The Council is over.
I ask myself why 100 years of preparation were necessary for this Council.
I have no answer.


That's a good question.But how long before it's forgotten about? 2weeks?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users