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Result of Holy Great Council


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#1 Lakis Papas

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Posted 28 June 2016 - 09:58 PM

The results of Holy Great Council are poor, as far as they are in comparison with previous Councils.

The main result that was claimed is union. Yet, seems unity is under question. And union does not ask for demonstration.

I am afraid this Council did not produced any fruits.

#2 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 02:24 PM

What is meant by 'union'? The Church is One. It possesses unity. To 'claim' unity implies that some at the Council (which has been neither 'Holy' nor 'Great') do not believe the Church is One as our Creed says.



#3 Phoebe K.

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 04:40 PM

I have started to work my way through the official documents, I have only managed to read the Encyclical and message so far but both say very little of anything.  There is the positive that the counsels post the seventh ecumenical counsel which specifically condemned a hericy have been recognized, but nothing else was said which had not been in other staments over the last few decades.

 

There was a complete lack of recognition as to  some churches did not attended or the reasons why this was, there was also the untrue implication that all had agreed to the counsel being held, as Metroplitan Siluan of the British Isles and Ireland made clear in a stament on the 23rd of June.

 

I am not going to make my decision on the results until I have had a chance to study all the texts and the responses from the synods of the Church have happened. Though I think personally the best we can hope for is an acknowledgement that it did not live up to the hype and failed to address the real issues facing the Church, at worst it will be show to be a false counsel as it proclaimed hericy (although the documents I have read so far are on the edge of this they have not fallen into that trap).



#4 Marie+Duquette

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 05:09 PM

The results of Holy Great Council are poor, as far as they are in comparison with previous Councils.

The main result that was claimed is union. Yet, seems unity is under question. And union does not ask for demonstration.

I am afraid this Council did not produced any fruits.

 

Perhaps the "fruit" that are to be produced by the Council, are yet in the process of being formed in the "Garden of the Holy Spirit" as

a result of this recent Council!

 

Let's not get caught up the the "instant gratification" that is rampant in this modern world!  Don't we know yet how to WAIT

and SEE,  WATCH and PRAY  as not to fall into temptation as  the Holy Gospel calls us to do in the words of Jesus Christ, Himself!

 

Do we not believe that the Holy Spirit is active in this "work of the Church - One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic - "  ?

 

Prayer is of the essence, it seems to me, at every stage of development of this Great and Holy Council . . .  it's not up to us to

determine the fruitfulness of the Council.

 

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God,  have mercy upon me a sinner!


Edited by Marie+Duquette, 29 June 2016 - 05:11 PM.


#5 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 06:37 PM

I am not sure that it is not up to us to determine the 'fruitfulness' of this Council - the laity have a watching brief in these matters.
 
There is also this: http://www.pravoslav...glish/94770.htm

Edited by Rdr Andreas, 29 June 2016 - 06:41 PM.


#6 Marie+Duquette

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 11:04 PM

"I am not sure that it is not up to us to determine the 'fruitfulness' of this Council - the laity have a watching brief in these matters."

 

Rdr Andreas, I don't quite understand what you mean by the above as per your last post.  Please clarify -- "the laity have a watching brief in these matters." Especially the phrase:  watching brief.

 

My reply was especially with regards to Lukis Papas' "I am afraid this Council did not produced any fruits."    How are we, the laity to know and understand that this Council produced NO FRUIT!    How can that be determined today, three days after the closing of the Council!  As I understand this, it takes "time" for FRUIT to grow and to mature in repeness for the harvest!  Picked too soon, fruit can be hard and sour and bitter, not having reached maturity and ripeness!

 

Oh Heavenly King, Comforter and Spirit of Truth, come and abide in us, cleanse us of every impurity and save our souls, Oh Good One!


Edited by Marie+Duquette, 29 June 2016 - 11:12 PM.


#7 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 29 June 2016 - 11:29 PM

'Watching brief' - it's an expression used by English lawyers and means one who follows something in which he is not directly involved but in which he has an interest. In this context, it means the laity can and ought to monitor what is happening at events such as this Council and ultimately can accept or reject it. I agree that it may take some time to reflect upon and assess the outcomes of this Council but we may note the widespread critical comments on it by leading hierarchs and non-attendance by large sections of the Church. In short, the laity, the people, are the ultimate guardians of the faith.



#8 Marie+Duquette

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 12:47 PM

Return to the basic "Word" of the Scriptures in Luke 11: 46-52 concerning Jesus' reproach to the lawyers, scribes, pharisees

 

The Great Council was called, most responded, some had concerns . . .  This is serious business, isn't it?  refer also to the

"first Council in Jerusalem" as stated in the Acts of the Apostles:  "we, and the Holy Spirit, gathered together ... "

 

Essentially speaking, what is the "Will of God" in this "matter" of the conviening of the Great Council, if not "sobernost" unity,

 

Questions, Concerns of certain Churches,  yet, being present perhaps could have brought more clarity in the Light of Christ

through the Grace of the Holy Spirit, in the midst of "IT" all?

 

Is the FAITH to be guarded or is it to be sown and to grow!  It is Gift of God to be nurtured, cultivated, and bear fruit in Spirit and in Truth!  

 

Simply a thought shared, not to be contentious, but to "ponder these things in the heart" as Mary did throughout the perplexities of the unknown being expressed in this present time, in the not understanding . . .  In the end it all serves, to the Glory of God and the salvation of our souls.

 

Lord Jesus Christ have mercy upon us all, sinners!


Edited by Marie+Duquette, 30 June 2016 - 12:58 PM.


#9 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 04:02 PM

"Is the FAITH to be guarded or is it to be sown and to grow! It is Gift of God to be nurtured, cultivated, and bear fruit in Spirit and in Truth!"
 
The teaching or sowing of the Orthodox Faith is the responsibility of bishops who assume the commission of Christ to the Apostles: 'Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.' (Matthew 28:19-20, my emphasis.) In our services we say that our bishops are 'rightly to divide the word of truth' (meaning correctly interpreting).

 

The whole Church is to guard the Faith, and that the laity have a key role in this is the teaching of the Church and notably appears in the 1848 Encyclical of the Orthodox Patriarchs. So, the Faith is to be 'sown', principally by the bishops, and guarded by the whole Church and ultimately by the laity.



#10 Antonios

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 04:19 PM

Perhaps the "fruit" that are to be produced by the Council, are yet in the process of being formed in the "Garden of the Holy Spirit" as

a result of this recent Council!

 

Let's not get caught up the the "instant gratification" that is rampant in this modern world!  Don't we know yet how to WAIT

and SEE,  WATCH and PRAY  as not to fall into temptation as  the Holy Gospel calls us to do in the words of Jesus Christ, Himself!

 

Do we not believe that the Holy Spirit is active in this "work of the Church - One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic - "  ?

 

Prayer is of the essence, it seems to me, at every stage of development of this Great and Holy Council . . .  it's not up to us to

determine the fruitfulness of the Council.

 

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God,  have mercy upon me a sinner!

 

I totally agree.  I think it is very premature to guess what kind of fruits this Council will produce.  Studying the history of the other major Councils in Church History, there were all beset with controversy and intrigue from many different camps, and reception some time took years while in some instances were eventually rejected by the Church.  I don't believe this will be remembered as a "Ecumenical Council" but I do believe this will pave the way for one in the hopefully not too distant future with all the Patriarchates present.  

 

Having read the official documents, I am very encouraged.  I side with Metropolitan Hierotheos on his decision not to sign the one document, but I dont believe that this has led to an end of the discussion, but rather a new beginning of the discussion.  Having heard both the Council participants and those who did not attend (Russian Patriarch, specifically) that this will hopefully lead to future Council(s) is the fruit that this particular gathering may be remembered for, namely as the stepping stone which led to a Ecumenical Council where all the Local Churches are present.  That is, at least, my prayer.   


Edited by Antonios, 30 June 2016 - 04:21 PM.


#11 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 05:03 PM

Roughly half all Orthodox Christians are in Russia and so its Church's non-participation in this Council is very significant.



#12 Lakis Papas

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Posted 30 June 2016 - 10:43 PM

How come that Orthodox Patriarchs share the same Sunday Cup, yet can not share the same roof, nor can they share their experience of Spirit in their life.

#13 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 09:39 AM

Perhaps because they share one Faith but not one agenda for the ordering of Church matters.



#14 Marie+Duquette

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 12:57 PM

"How come that Orthodox Patriarchs share the same Sunday Cup, yet can not share the same roof, nor can they share their experience of Spirit in their life."  Lakis Papas

 

"Perhaps because they share one Faith but not one agenda for the ordering of Church matters." Rdr Andreas

 

+

 

Without being judgmental concerning the Great Council and the "humans" who worked at it preparation, a question rises:  whose AGENDA was upper most on the table?  Was it all a human "power struggle" as to whose AGENDA was to be followed?  Or is this ALL the "Project of GOD led by the Holy Spirit?

 

Not up to me to determine, yet it does make me wonder about it all!  In Christ there is not East or West, North or South, yet in the daily nitty gritty of living there are the many issues, problems, questions, cultures, known and unknown,  often "hidden agendas" . . .  that are to be examined from around this globe upon which we all live, as well as the writing of the FATHERS of the CHURCH across the ages.. and the WILL of GOD not yet made manifest!  

 

And this is a huge challenge, since there are many spokes in the wheel that holds everything together for a smooth ordering and functioning of the whole  ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, APOSTOLIC  Church!  The CROSS still remains at the Center/Heart of IT ALL!  accepting human limitations amidst the all-embracing Presence of the Holy Trinity -- Three Persons in One God! 

 

If we chant, shout, pray, contemplate this "God is with us, submit you Nations!  for God is with us!"  what is it, that is truly meantby these words?  Triumphalism or the humility that recognizes the "Divine in the human dough" that makes the bread to rise into truly being "EUCHARIST"  this sharing of the same Sunday Cup. In the end it is all God's doing!  May God be praise and glorified, now and forever and unto ages of ages.  Amen

 

I'm daily reminded that "Repentence" is a way of Life, as expressed in the Scriptures!  "Repent! for the Kingdom of God is at hand." 

 

May the Holy Spirit in all of the GIFTS -- Wisdom, Understanding, Knowledge, Counsel, Courage, Piety and Fear of the Lord  be with us all, as the Fruit of this Great Council matures with the assistance of the Charismatic Gifts as expressed in Paul's Ist Letter to the Corinthians.

 

Lord have mercy!


Edited by Marie+Duquette, 01 July 2016 - 01:11 PM.


#15 Marie+Duquette

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 01:18 PM

Thank you Antonios for your very encouraging response to my post # 6

I did overlook it, please forgive!  What you said should have been sufficient, yet I do not regret posting #14

 

Oh Heavenly King, Comforter and spirit of Truth, treasury of blessings and given of life, come and abide

in us, cleanse of every impurity and save our souls, Oh Good One!



#16 Anna Stickles

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 01:30 PM

How come that Orthodox Patriarchs share the same Sunday Cup, yet can not share the same roof, nor can they share their experience of Spirit in their life.

 

Sin cannot effect the basic unity of the Church, but it does affect how we relate to one another. There is One Mystery that we all participate in - One Cup, One Baptism, One Episcopacy, One Faith, One Church, One Christ, One God and Father of all.  From beginning to end it is sin that causes divisions and Christ who draws us into his One Body to heal us.

 

Below is something to think about. If the bishops have the grace of the e[scopacy through ordination, but do not live spiritual lives according to reason (logos) and have the soul in subjection to God and the offering of a pure conscience then there will be some amount of turbulence and dissonance. The below is also why people like St Paisios of Athos have some authority, though not ordained. This is not to overturn the given order of the Church (not the thing any saints advocate) but to recognize how Christ is present throughout.


 

Although the Church of God as a whole has a hierarchical
structure so that the completeness of the body consists in a diversity of
members, “we are,” nevertheless, as the Apostle says, “one in Christ”. No one
functions so independently of one another that even the lowliest part does not
have some relationship with the Head to which it is connected. In the unity of
faith and baptism, we have an undifferentiated fellowship, dearly beloved and a
uniform dignity. So proclaims the most blessed apostle Peter when he says these
most sacred words: “And you yourselves should be built up like living stones
into spiritual dwellings, a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices
acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. And later on he says: “you however are
a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people set apart.” All who
have been regenerated in Christ are made kings by the sign of the cross and
consecrated priests by the anointing of the Holy Spirit (both here references
to the rituals involved in entrance into the Church, see services for baptism
and chrismation).

 

Apart from the particular service that our ministry (as
bishop) entails, all Christians who live spiritual lives according to reason
recognize that they have a part in the royal race and the priestly office. What
could be more royal than the soul in subjection to God and ruling over its own
body? What could be more priestly than dedicating a pure conscience to the Lord
and offering spotless sacrifices of devotion from the altar of the heart?

 

Since this has been given to everyone alike through the

grace of God, it is a devout and praiseworthy thing for you to take joy in the
day of our elevation as if in your own honor. Let the episcopacy be celebrated
in the entire body of the Church as one single mystery. When the oil of
benediction has been poured out, the mystery flows, though more abundantly onto
the higher parts, yet not ungenerously down to the lower ones as well. Dearly
beloved, our joint participation in this gift provides ample occasion for
rejoicing together. …” Leo the Great sermon 4



 


Edited by Anna Stickles, 01 July 2016 - 01:38 PM.


#17 Lakis Papas

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Posted 01 July 2016 - 11:09 PM

1)It is a mystery, how everything contributes to God's plans. But, when even persecutions did not broke the Church, the persecutors are not justified.

Negative behavior is unjustified, always.

2) We always measure the acts based on the best possible performance. What was possible, it was required.

3) Explanations are welcomed as they are provided, but it is better to offer acceptance rather than offering denials.

4) Time is needed to cultivate the fields but the seed defines the fruit.

#18 Anna Stickles

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Posted 02 July 2016 - 02:34 PM

Well, it is beginning to sound more like Florence and other more recent councils that are started, controlled and the end determined by particular political factions in the Church. The whole way of signing which puts the bishop's name on against his own will, the lies coming out of the EP's press box that are still insisting that the council is "pan-orthodox" which is just a delusion when 4 churches decide not to show up, including the largest and one of the oldest. The absolute refusal to listen to anyone else's concerns even when they do make the effort to show up. (Notice that Greece, Romania, and Cyprus were ignored - add this to those who did not show up because of the problems and we have at least 7, half of the autocephalous churches, who do not agree with this document and its wording)

 


Vladyka Hierotheos underlined that it was due to
“theological motivations” that he did not sign
the text “Relations of the Orthodox Church with the
Rest of the Christian World,” but the documents
“The Mission of the Orthodox Church in Today’s
World” and “The Sacrament of Marriage and its
Impediments” were signed by him with reservations.



Vladyka reports that, in his view, all the amendments
proposed by the delegation of the Greek Orthodox Church
were in actuality rejected.



The document “Relations of the Orthodox Church with
the Rest of the Christian World” aroused the concern
of Met. Hierotheos from the very beginning, but until the
end he hoped it would be corrected thanks to amendments of
the Greek and other Local Churches.



However, at the Council the final criterion of truth was
Met. John (Zizioulas) of Pergamon: “he either
rejected, changed, or accepted the amendments.”


As a result, according to the metropolitan of Nafpatkos,
“it turned out to be a crude text,” which
until the very last moment (even at the stage of
translating into Russian, French and English) was being
amended.


Vladyka believes that the text “Relations of the
Orthodox Church with the Rest of the Christian
World” should have been removed from discussion. He
himself did not sign the document because it is in
conflict with things he had previously written on the
basis of the teachings of the Holy Fathers.



Metropolitan Hierotheos also reports that at the Council
the Greek Church’s amendments to the document
“Relations of the Orthodox Church with the Rest of
the Christian World” were rejected: in the sixth
paragraph it was proposed to change “Christian
Churches and Confessions” to “Christian
confessions and communities.”



On Friday when the document was discussed the
deliberations came to a standstill. The Romanian Church
withdrew its amendment to the sixth paragraph:
“confessions and heterodox communities,” with
a choice between the Cypriot Church’s
“heterodox Churches” and the Greek
Church’s “Christian confessions and
communities” remaining.


In the afternoon at an emergency meeting of the Greek
Church’s delegation it was decided to defend the
position of the Holy Synod of the Greek Church until the
end, and a number of alternative version were proposed:
“The Orthodox Church is aware of the existence of
the heterodox” or “other Christians” or
“non-Orthodox Christians.”



As all these options were rejected, the Constantinople
Patriarch publicly offered at the evening session to hold
a meeting between Met. John of Pergamon and Met.
Hierotheos in order to work out a solution.



Met. John met this initiative cooly, while Met. Hierotheos
stated that “it’s not a personal problem, but
a question for the whole delegation of the Greek
Church.”



Then the Ecumenical Patriarch told the Athens Archbishop
that it was absolutely necessary to come to some kind of
decision.


The delegation of the Greek Church had a meeting on
Saturday morning and decided to propose the option:
“the Orthodox Church acknowledges the historical
name of other heterodox Christian churches and confessions
not in communion with it.”


Afterwards Met. Hierotheos stated that he would not sign
the text with such a formulation.



He also reports that the hierarchy of the Greek Church was
sharply criticized at the Council for its consistent
position. Perhaps it was psychological pressure that
contributed to the final formulation of the amendment
which was approved. “I was personally faced with
serious pressure and abusive behavior from the hierarchs.
According to my information other members of the Greek
Church experienced this pressure too,” says Met.
Hierotheos.


He notes that his name appears amongst the signatures on
the final edition of the text. Apparently if a primate
signed a text then the signatures of his entire delegation
were automatically included.



#19 Anna Stickles

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Posted 02 July 2016 - 02:42 PM

See also this http://www.pravoslav...ish/94770.htm 

UPDATED: Seven Metropolitans withheld signatures from Pan-Orthodox Council documents

#20 Anna Stickles

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Posted 02 July 2016 - 02:49 PM

Likewise for more on Met. John of Pregamon, and his theology and vision see this http://www.pravoslavie.ru/80888.html






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