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Where is Ode II?


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#21 Father David Moser

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 10:29 PM

I wish someone would make a guide to other services like so many that are available for the Liturgy.


One of the best "flowcharts" for the services that I have been able to find is A Fieldguide to Orthodox Church Services: written by Fr Dcn Serge Arlievsky. It can be purchased here but some people have had trouble with response time so be aware of this glitch. Another excellent book is the "Order of Divine Services" published by St John of Kronstadt Press here. You will have to type the name of the book into the search feature to get the listing. ODS is text based without the diagrams of the Fieldguide, however it is much more complete and comprehensive covering a number of different liturgical possibilities. Another "flow chart" approach that is pretty basic is in the intro to the Festal Menaion from Faber and Faber (trans Mother Mary and Kallistos Ware). This is very basic, but helpful.

Fr David Moser

#22 Father David Moser

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 10:36 PM

I wish someone would make a guide to other services like so many that are available for the Liturgy.


I just happened to think that maybe you wanted resources on the general structure and meaning of the services rather than "how to" references for assembling them. For this purpose I would suggest A Manual of the Divine Services by Sokoloff.

Also when looking up the above reference I found that the same site has the ODS online here.

Fr David Moser

#23 Cyprian (Humphrey)

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Posted 04 March 2009 - 11:32 PM

I won't go into detail about the layers of my confusions, but it goes to this: I don't know what I'm talking about, so feel free to correct me. But between the reading/venerating of the Gospel and the Magnificat someone reads the Odes. There usually more than one (and sometimes three) books they use to make up the reading, but one of the books clearly has sections called Odes and they are numbered 1-9. We always skip #2 (it is printed in the book, I promise) and sing the Magnificat between 8-9 (I think).

Does that help?


Well that definitely does sound like the Matinal Canon then. No doubt in my mind. Thanks.

I really wasn't doubting you, it's just that your post, by itself, seemed vague - at least to me. Maybe I read it wrong!

Well, I learned something new today! The Ode II's are still in print somewhere! :)

Thanks so much for answering.

#24 Anthony Stokes

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 05:06 AM

...but one of the books clearly has sections called Odes and they are numbered 1-9. We always skip #2 (it is printed in the book, I promise) and sing the Magnificat between 8-9 (I think).

Does that help?


I would actually be interested to know which book it is. Next time you remember, check it out and let us know if you don't mind. On a normal Sunday night you would generally be using the Octoechos and the Menaion for the canon (during Lent, the Octoechos and Triodion).

I wish someone would make a guide to other services like so many that are available for the Liturgy.


I have outlines from a class on Church Services that I taught. If you are looking for outlines, let me know and I can send them by email.

Sbdn. Anthony

#25 D. W. Dickens

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Posted 05 March 2009 - 03:38 PM

I would actually be interested to know which book it is. Next time you remember, check it out and let us know if you don't mind. On a normal Sunday night you would generally be using the Octoechos and the Menaion for the canon (during Lent, the Octoechos and Triodion).

I have outlines from a class on Church Services that I taught. If you are looking for outlines, let me know and I can send them by email.


Saturday Vigil... and sure I'll look at the book. I might be able to get back to you this weekend.

If you have some outlines I would most appreciate them. I don't know if this board supports it, so I'll just private message you my email address.

#26 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 03:16 PM

I just realized something...

There are 8 Odes to a standard canon.

However there are 9 Biblical canticles.

Starting with the premise that these were originally two separate forms of hymnography or chant...

When they were put together one biblical canticle would have to drop to match the number of odes.

Just a theory and with some rough edges remaining I think.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#27 Joshua G.

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 05:59 PM

Isn't the reason that there are only 8 Odes is because the 2nd was dropped over time? Traditionally, aren't Canons made up of 9 Odes? Maybe I am not understanding you post very well. My apologies.

Joshua

#28 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 06 March 2009 - 06:38 PM

Isn't the reason that there are only 8 Odes is because the 2nd was dropped over time? Traditionally, aren't Canons made up of 9 Odes? Maybe I am not understanding you post very well. My apologies.

Joshua


That`s alright- I`m not sure my post was too clear.

But there are only eight odes in the present canon structure outside of Great Lent.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#29 Joshua G.

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 02:58 AM

I just realized something...

There are 8 Odes to a standard canon.

However there are 9 Biblical canticles.

Starting with the premise that these were originally two separate forms of hymnography or chant...

When they were put together one biblical canticle would have to drop to match the number of odes.

Just a theory and with some rough edges remaining I think.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

Father Bless!

Please understand that I am not arguing or trying to prove anything. My questions are to understand.

It seems that none of the canticles were dropped. that since there are still 9 biblical canticles, there were always 9 even when the canons were formed. It would seem a biblical cnticle was never dropped, right? All nine are still there for us to read, right? Where am I mistaken?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of this and understanding questions or answers in this thread is helping me.

Joshua

#30 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 09 March 2009 - 08:08 PM

Joshua G. wrote


Father Bless!

It seems that none of the canticles were dropped. that since there are still 9 biblical canticles, there were always 9 even when the canons were formed. It would seem a biblical cnticle was never dropped, right? All nine are still there for us to read, right? Where am I mistaken?


It is the 2nd biblical canticle that was dropped except for Great Lent. So that means that nowadays in the canon there are both 8 odes and 8 biblical canticles if these are are used.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#31 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 02:46 PM

In St Symeon of Thessaloniki's Treatise on Prayer (Hellenic College Press 1984) there is a reference to how the Biblical Canticles and the Canon were at the time part of two different orders for doing the Matins. The first where the Biblical Canticles were done was part of the order of the Great Church in Constantinople. But the second where the Canon was done was part of the monastic order and reflected the Typikon of St Sava which originated in Jerusalem. From the description in the Treatise it seems that at the time in Constantinople that the "great Church" -Agia Sophia- followed one order whereas the monasteries followed that of St Sava.

For our question what is interesting is that for the Biblical Canticles all 9 as we currently know them in Great Lent- ie including Canticle 2- are clearly described. This includes the Canticle to the Theotokos (More honourable than the Cherubim...) that is found in between Canticles 8 & 9. Evidently at the time (15th century) all 9 Canticles were done as part of normal Matins.

Meanwhile in monasteries the canon was done. Unfortunately though I am not able to find a description of the structure of the Canon at this time.

The evidence therefore is that at one time the Biblical Canticles were part of one order of services while the Canon (ie composed hymnography) was part of another.

I'm not sure that much more can be said about this without direct evidence. But obviously our present Canon develops from how the Canticles and Canon were brought together into one. Perhaps in this development we can find out what happened to Ode Two.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#32 Joshua G.

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 02:59 PM

So, then, there is no reason to believe that Canticle 1 has anythingmore do do with Ode I than it does Ode 5. Am I correct. I was under the impression that Canticle 1 was connected in meaning somehow to Canon 1, Canticle 3 to Canon 3 etc, but I'm thinking I misunderstood because 1) of your recent evidence Father and 2) the other night I sat down and read the first Canticle and then Ode I and I saw no common theme that stuck out. I thought I was missing something but now I think I just misunderstood.

I feel like I am back at square one! lol

Joshua

#33 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 10 March 2009 - 04:20 PM

So, then, there is no reason to believe that Canticle 1 has anythingmore do do with Ode I than it does Ode 5. Am I correct. I was under the impression that Canticle 1 was connected in meaning somehow to Canon 1, Canticle 3 to Canon 3 etc, but I'm thinking I misunderstood because 1) of your recent evidence Father and 2) the other night I sat down and read the first Canticle and then Ode I and I saw no common theme that stuck out. I thought I was missing something but now I think I just misunderstood.

I feel like I am back at square one! lol

Joshua


Yes the terms get confusing because of the way they are used interchangably.

In any case it is only in the Irmos of the Ode of the Canon that direct reference is made to the theme found in the Biblical Canticle of the same number.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#34 M.C. Steenberg

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 09:05 AM

Dear Joshua,

Don't let the complexities wary you too much! There is clearly a connection between the biblical odes (which were in usage first; drawn from the scriptures), and the canon(s) of odes that are in fact direct reflections on the themes of their associated odes from the biblical set. During the weeks of Great Lent, when the biblical odes are read together with the canon, this becomes very clear: the biblical odes are the 'root'; the canon (or, properly, multiple canons) are intersperced with their verses, oftentimes reflecting directly on what is being said in the scriptural song.

How and why and when Ode II dropped out of common usage, except in Great Lent, to such a universal extent that canons are henceforth not even written with a second ode, is a phenomenon of liturgical history about which I cannot offer any insight. The most commonly-offered response to the question is that its imagery is 'too grave' for normal usage; but I have never found this either satisfactory or accurate (not satisfactory, because grave imagery is not a thing to be shied from in liturgical song; and not accurate, because there are liturgical texts in regular use in the service books and menaia which are far more grave in imagery than the second biblical ode and associated odes in the Lenten canons). There must be other issues at play -- but I am not a liturgical historian, so could only guess at this.

INXC, Deacon Matthew

#35 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 01:59 PM

And I am afraid that for now I am at the end of my search about Ode II. Except for further strong evidence that the Biblical Canticles were done separately at one time I can find no further information right now on how these were eventually put together with the hymnographic canon nor on how/why Ode II dropped out.

I also agree with Fr Dn Matthew that the reason often heard about it's being 'too gruesome' is clearly incorrect.

I still tend to think that if we could find out what the structure of a canon was as done in the monasteries we could have an insight about this. For I suspect that Ode II dropped out as a result of how the two forms of the Canticles & hymnographic canons were brought together.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#36 Joshua G.

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 05:35 PM

Dear Joshua,

Don't let the complexities wary you too much! There is clearly a connection between the biblical odes (which were in usage first; drawn from the scriptures), and the canon(s) of odes that are in fact direct reflections on the themes of their associated odes from the biblical set. During the weeks of Great Lent, when the biblical odes are read together with the canon, this becomes very clear: the biblical odes are the 'root'; the canon (or, properly, multiple canons) are intersperced with their verses, oftentimes reflecting directly on what is being said in the scriptural song.

How and why and when Ode II dropped out of common usage, except in Great Lent, to such a universal extent that canons are henceforth not even written with a second ode, is a phenomenon of liturgical history about which I cannot offer any insight. The most commonly-offered response to the question is that its imagery is 'too grave' for normal usage; but I have never found this either satisfactory or accurate (not satisfactory, because grave imagery is not a thing to be shied from in liturgical song; and not accurate, because there are liturgical texts in regular use in the service books and menaia which are far more grave in imagery than the second biblical ode and associated odes in the Lenten canons). There must be other issues at play -- but I am not a liturgical historian, so could only guess at this.

INXC, Deacon Matthew


Thank you Father Deacon,

To be clear, when you use "Ode" in the post quoted you are using this word interchangeably with Canticle. Correct? In other words, by "Ode" you are referring the scriptural excerpts, not the extrabiblical hymn (which, if I understand your words, is based directly off of the corresponding Canticle).

Please correct me where I err.

In Christ,

Joshua

PS: I don't want you to think I am losing sleep over this. it's just that in understanding patterns and purposes I am able to more easily address more meaning to what is otherwise a very confusing and random set of prayers and hymns. Indeed, I am losing sleep, a lot of it, but that's due to my teething 11 mo old :)

#37 Anthony Stokes

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Posted 11 March 2009 - 07:06 PM

I still tend to think that if we could find out what the structure of a canon was as done in the monasteries we could have an insight about this. For I suspect that Ode II dropped out as a result of how the two forms of the Canticles & hymnographic canons were brought together.

In Christ- Fr Raphael


A few months ago when I was teaching my service structure class, I believe I came upon something like this in Taft's The Liturgy of the Hours in East and West. I'll borrow it from my priest again tonight and let you know what I find.

Sbdn. Anthony

#38 M.C. Steenberg

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Posted 12 March 2009 - 12:02 PM

Dear Joshua, you wrote:

To be clear, when you use "Ode" in the post quoted you are using this word interchangeably with Canticle. Correct? In other words, by "Ode" you are referring the scriptural excerpts, not the extrabiblical hymn (which, if I understand your words, is based directly off of the corresponding Canticle).


That's quite right: I use 'ode' and 'canticle' interchangeably (as they mean the same thing) - though I tend to use 'ode' most often, as it's that term we usually use in our own liturgical practice.

But this is not to differentiate 'ode' from 'canticle' as if one meant the biblical hymns, and the other the hymns reflecting on those, which form the canons.

INXC, Dcn Matthew

#39 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 02:27 PM

In the Irmologon I was finally able to find the instructions for how to do the Canon with the Biblical Canticle.

Apparently besides Great Lent this can also be done on Sundays, feasts of the Lord and the Theotokos, forefeasts and afterfeasts, saints of polyeley and great doxology rank and also through all of the Pentecost period.

For Ode One at Sunday (Resurrectional) Matins for example what is done is:

Irmos; then immediately the first tropar of the canon preceded by the vs: Glory to Thy Holy Resurection O Lord.
then from the biblical canticle
Let us sing to the Lord... then tropar from canon
A helper & protector... tropar
The Lord quenching wars...The chariots of Pharoah... tropar
With the open sea He covered them... tropar
then skip to for 8 verses. Then did the rulers of Edom hasten... tropar
and continue through the rest of the canticle interspersing the tropars of the canon with it.
for the last two tropars we have Glory...tropar then Both now & ever... tropar.

Then the katavasia.

There is however no Ode Two in this description.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#40 M.C. Steenberg

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Posted 13 March 2009 - 08:56 PM

Dear Father Raphael,

I think that you will find detailed information on the integration of the biblical odes and the canons at the front of the Lenten Triodion in English - where the structure is described in detail for each weekday (as the integration is different from day to day).

INXC, Dcn Matthew




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