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Christ’s death on the Cross


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#21 Anna Stickles

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 01:42 AM

Dear Anna,

 

"And with regard to every human experience, you will find exactly the corresponding thing in Christ."

 

What you have posted sounds like recapitulation to me, even when human beings are in the womb.

 

In Christ,

 

Matthew Panchisin

 

What the saint is saying is that because the Word became incarnate, having a body and soul like ours, He could experience those things that are connected with a body and soul. However,  He always experiences/lives these things in a way that redeems human nature, not in a merely human way as we do. 


Edited by Anna Stickles, 04 January 2017 - 01:43 AM.


#22 Anna Stickles

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 02:49 AM

Andreas and Matthew,

 

I think it is a temptation to get bogged down in particular scientific understandings of what Christ did. The focus of the Patristic thought is always soteriological and pastoral not scientific. I think you are both getting bogged down in trying to make a scientific point about how Christ saves us - just the opposite scientific point. ie either focusing on the development of the embryo or it's perfection in Christ as something necessary to salvation.

 

If we move away from the science and focus on the soteriology - that the Word's advent as a man is what redeems human nature and experience, we will be closer to the mind of the Fathers and in a much better place to understand what they are trying to teach us. 

 

Matthew here is something maybe to think about when we talk about recapitulation

 

This view originated with Irenaeus (125-202 AD). He sees Christ as the new Adam, who systematically undoes what Adam did. Thus, where Adam was disobedient concerning God's edict concerning the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, Christ was obedient even to death on the wood of a tree. Irenaeus is the first to draw comparisons between Eve and Mary, contrasting the faithlessness of the former with the faithfulness of the latter. In addition to reversing the wrongs done by Adam, Irenaeus thinks of Christ as "recapitulating" or "summing up" human life.^[2]^

 

According to Peter Leithart: In their recent study of patristic interpretation, John O'Keefe and R R Reno ^[3]^ point out that Irenaeus borrows his notion of recapitulation from ancient rhetoric:

Recapitulation is an English form of recapitulans, the Latin translation of anakephalaiosis, which means final repetition, summing up, drawing to conclusion. As a term in rhetoric, it refers to the end of a speech, when the speaker drives home the point with a summary of the strongest arguments

 

In applying this notion to the life of Jesus, then, Irenaeus is not merely saying that Jesus "repeats" the history of man or of Israel, but that He is "the Father's 'summary statement," as well as the "Logos of the Father, the logic or purpose in and through which the whole divine economy is conceived and implemented." Behind Irenaeus' use, then, is a rhetorical conception of redemptive history as the speech of the Father.

 

 

 

This "summing up" is a spiritual truth that is expressed in different Patristic authors in different ways, just as the perfection of Christ's humanity is expressed in different Patristic authors in different ways.

 

None of the Fathers try to tie these concepts absolutely to some material and physical aspect of our existence. Yes the idea of a complete body at conception can convey the idea of the perfection of Christ's humanity, and yes the idea of Christ developing as an embryo can convey the idea of recapitulation, but we should not insist that this is the only or necessary way to talk about or understand these things since there is a variety of expressions in tradition. 

 

St Basil himself, comments that the idea of "formed" or "unformed" is not what we should be focusing on. (I can try to find the quote if you like) and St Maximos comments that he is hesitant to put forward his own opinion as formative, allowing for a variety of opinions as long as the basic soteriological point is held to. If the saints themselves who held to varying opinions on this are allowing other variations, why are we so intent on denying the validity of this?

 

Forgive me.


Edited by Anna Stickles, 04 January 2017 - 02:53 AM.


#23 Matthew Panchisin

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Posted 04 January 2017 - 04:58 AM

Dear Anna,
 

God forgives, even more so for it is clear here that you are very young convert to the faith and convey notions as if others are as well.

 

There is much within your last few posts that is exceedingly problematic again and simply incorrect (to say the least) again.

 

You speak of temptation and soteriological and pastoral dispositions. This is a basic matter of praxis and reality within the Orthodox Church, everybody I know and have known has not been not moved into the new non-embro teaching realm within the Orthodox Church, such thinking would usually be quickly dismissed as out of hand today and in the past. There is continuity in the Orthodox faith that is a living reality that you are obviously unaware of. I'm rather certain that Saint John of San Francisco, Vladyka Laurus, Vladyka Anthony, Vladyka Alypy etc. would dismiss such notions as out of hand.


If however one is moved into the realm of God is perfect, God is with us etc., the actual conveyence of Saint Basil and Saint John are saying such thinking is not dismissed as eskusheniye.

It is clear here that you think differently Andreas and Anna, the place of the faith, dogma of the Orthodox Church is actually sacred tradition, you will not in reality find room for the new non-embryo teaching therein irrespective of your collective musings.
 
In Christ,

 

Matthew Panchisin

Edited by Matthew Panchisin, 04 January 2017 - 05:10 AM.





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