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How is the Easter date derrived from Jewish passover?


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#21 Phoebe K.

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:24 PM

When we descused the Calculation of Pasch in the parish I attend out Priest made the suggestion that the calender itself should be changed to link with what happens in nature, putting the Annunciation on the atual equinox, and calculating the calendar from there for everything, fixed feasts as well as Pasch.

 

Personally I think we need to get all the bishops together to sort out the mess in the calanders and with the drift of Pasch, but that might be asking for a few miricals.

 

Phoebe



#22 Kosta

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:44 AM

When we descused the Calculation of Pasch in the parish I attend out Priest made the suggestion that the calender itself should be changed to link with what happens in nature, putting the Annunciation on the atual equinox, and calculating the calendar from there for everything, fixed feasts as well as Pasch.

 

Personally I think we need to get all the bishops together to sort out the mess in the calanders and with the drift of Pasch, but that might be asking for a few miricals.

 

Phoebe

 

Problem is we never will know when the equinox actually occurs in the sky, as it can be off by as much as 72 hours. Also most Fathers considered the Conception/Annunciation to have coincided with the Crucifixion. That Good Friday and the Annunciation occured on the same anniversary.

 

Now it is possible to (re)adopt St Ephraim's dating of the conception as occuring on the Equinox (march 21),  the day the paschal lambs were chosen for the passover, which placed Christmas on the solstice. The up side of this would be that St Ephraim's hymns and as some Nativity hymns would truly make sense. In our Church the tradition that won out, was the roman tradition which placed Good Friday on March 25th as Tertullian explained.

 

 

From the time the Annunciation was added to the festal calendar, this feast day would sometimes coincide with Holy Week,  the Annunciation would be transfered to Pascha, and this was considered an extremely festive Paschal season.

 

I think its best to return to the Julian calendar which liturgically makes sense, with an understanding tat a truly Pan-Orthodox liturgical calendar can beworked out in the future.


Edited by Kosta, 16 April 2013 - 03:55 AM.


#23 Olga

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:33 AM

Also most Fathers considered the Conception/Annunciation to have coincided with the Crucifixion.

 

If this was indeed the case, the coincidence of the Annunciation with the Crucifixion would be a theme reflected in the hymnography of Great Friday.



#24 Kosta

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:59 AM

There was a variety of dates on the conception/nativity, as Clement of Alexandria attests to.  Most of these dates had a connection to the  Paschal season depending on which calendar one was using .  The Icon of the Nativity has the Christ Child in burial linens, a crib which resembles a casket and the manger as a foreshadow of his tomb.



#25 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:22 PM

I think its best to return to the Julian calendar which liturgically makes sense, with an understanding tat a truly Pan-Orthodox liturgical calendar can beworked out in the future.


Actually the Revised Julian Calendar would make much better sense liturgically, iconically, and canonically, if only we used the actual Vernal Equinox as a reference as stated by the First Ecumenical Council instead of a made-up date from an arbitrary and increasingly inaccurate table.

"In the future" is simply code for "I don't want to deal with it, let's make it somebody else's problem after I'm dead". Tomorrow is never "now".

If only today's Church had the courage and fortitude of yesterday's Church, instead of pushing it off on tomorrow's Church.

Herman

#26 Ryan

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:15 PM

Actually the Revised Julian Calendar would make much better sense liturgically, iconically, and canonically, if only we used the actual Vernal Equinox as a reference as stated by the First Ecumenical Council instead of a made-up date from an arbitrary and increasingly inaccurate table.

"In the future" is simply code for "I don't want to deal with it, let's make it somebody else's problem after I'm dead". Tomorrow is never "now".

If only today's Church had the courage and fortitude of yesterday's Church, instead of pushing it off on tomorrow's Church.

Herman

 

Well, the fact is, the Church is kind of a mess right now. There are all kinds of issues and let's not tempt schism any more than necessary, even for very sound, logical reasons. I think your approach would be the best one, logically speaking, but Kosta's is probably the better one in a practical/ diplomatic sense.



#27 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 09:00 PM

 

[A response by Fr. Emmanuel to an e-mail from Mr. Phillips, regarding the link in the prevoius post:]

 

Dear Mr. Phillips,

Thank you for your input and your suggestions. My purpose was to give our faithful a simplified method for calculating the date of Pascha – not to give them a listing of the dates of Pascha, Eastern or Western, which can be readily obtained in many websites and Church books.

As far as your suggestion to disregard the Jewish Passover, we cannot do that because in our tradition we cannot celebrate our Pascha on the first Sunday after the first full moon following the vernal equinox if the Jewish Passover coincides with or comes after that date (whereas Western Christianity does precisely what you suggest, i.e., disregard the Jewish Passover and celebrate their Easter together with it or even prior to it).

It is known that the old method of establishing the Jewish Passover is based on algorithmic calculations with the result that the dates of both our Pascha and the Rabbinical Passover are incorrect. The same is true with the establishment of the vernal equinox and full moon. All these days are fictitious, not actual. What is needed is the establishment of a scientific calendar based on modern astrological calculations.

One thing is certain: regardless of what course of action, if any, will be undertaken by the Orthodox Churches, because of theological considerations the date of our Pascha will always be celebrated after the Jewish Passover.

Sincere regards,
Fr. Emmanuel

This transcription of Fr. Emmanuel's reply to my email is accurate.  I will discuss his letter, and his weblog-post in detail here to dispel any misconceptions the transcript of his letter alone might create.

 

Father Emmanuel's letter can be read as stating that I sent to him a proposal for the emendation of the Eastern paschalion.  I did not.  My letter to him offered suggestions for how his weblog-post might be made clearer.  I offered two proposals.  These were alternatives, so that if one were to be adopted, the other would be disregarded.
 
To understand these proposals it will help to have the following passages from Fr. Emmanuel's web post.  These quotations are accurate as of my most recent visit to his weblog:
 

 This year (2013)
 
The vernal equinox this year is March 20 (it almost always is on this date, but sometimes it falls on the 19th or the 21st of March), and full moon is March 27, so the first Sunday after that is March 31—the date of Easter for all western Christians.
 
As we said above, since the Julian calendar is 13 days off, when we add the 13 days to March 20, the vernal equinox is calculated to fall on April 2. The next full moon is April 25. The Orthodox Pascha should fall on the following Sunday, April 28, but it does not, because of other complicated calculations. Thus, this Sunday is disregarded for the following Sunday, May 5. That’s the best I can do. Next year is more straightforward.
 
Let’s now figure out when our Pascha is next year, 2014.
 
Vernal Equinox       March 20
First full moon        April 15
First Sunday           April 20         Western Easter
Jewish Passover      April 14
Vernal Equinox is March 20 + 13 = April 2. First full moon is April 15. First Sunday is April 20. Since the Jewish Passover is April 14, the Orthodox Pascha is celebrated on the same day as the Western Easter.
...
Answer to the date of Western Easter and Orthodox Pascha in 2015
 
March 20 + 13 = April 2. First full moon April 4. First Sunday after that is April 5 on which falls the Western Easter. However, because the Jewish Passover falls on the same day, Pascha is celebrated on the following Sunday, April 12.
 
Let’s try one more: when is Pascha in 2016?
 
Vernal Equinox is March 20. First full moon is March 23. First Sunday after that is March 27. Western Easter is on this day. Orthodox Pascha [sic.  He probably means "equinox"] is March 20 + 13 = April 2. But since the Jewish Passover is April 22 the Sunday after that, or May 1, is the Orthodox Pascha.

 

 
My first suggestion to Fr. Emmanuel was that he be more precise about his use of the term "Jewish Passover."  In the passages quoted above, he identifies three dates as "Jewish Passover"
 
2014 April 14  Monday
2015 April  5  Sunday
2016 April 22  Friday
 
I pointed out to Fr. Emmanuel that these dates seem inconsistent.  The first and third correspond to 14 Nisan in the Jewish calendar in the years 5774 and 5776, respectively.  But the second, April 5 2015, corresponds to the 16th of Jewish Nisan, 5775.  I suggested that he be more precise about what he meant by "Jewish Passover".  I also pointed out that his readers might be puzzled why he did not identify April 24th, 2016 as the Sunday after April 22nd, 2016.
 
My second suggestion was itself divided into two variants.  For both, I suggested he scrap all mention of our Jewish neighbors and concentrate on the paschalion's own Paschal full moon or "nomikon faska". I offered the following suggestion for estimating Eastern Orthodox Easter by estimating the Eastern Orthodox Full moon.  I described the technique in a few words to Fr. Emmanual, but broken down into discrete steps for clarity, the procedure I suggested is equivalent to this:
 
a)  Locate the astronomical full moon (AFM) that falls on or after March 30.
b) Find the date that is four days after the AFM.  This date, AFM+4, is the approximation to the Eastern Orthodox full moon (EOFM) or nomikon faska.
c) Orthodox Easter will often be the Sunday after AFM+4.
 
This technique is not 100% reliable since the Eastern Orthodox full moon is not invariably 4 days after the astronomical full moon, but the AFM+4 method is "a simplified method for calculating the date of Pascha" (what Fr. Emmanuel claims to want to offer his readers) that works better than the method Fr. Emmanuel laid out in his weblog-post.  Instead of inconsistent statements about our Jewish neighbors' Passover, and mysterious-sounding comments about "other complicated calculations", Fr. Emmanuel could make the whole matter quite clear simply by explaining that the Eastern Orthodox full moon is around 4 days later than the astronomical full moon. 
 
Here are the results of the AFM+4 method for the 38 years 1995 through 2032 inclusive.  The method gives the correct result in all but three of the 38 years.  The years for which it undershoots are 2000, 2024, and 2027.  This is possible a reflection of the how the average difference between the AFM and the EOFM is somewhat more than 4 days.
 
Year    AFM                    AFM+4                  Sunday after     Orthodox         Agree?
                                                      AFM+4            Easter    
----    -------------------    -------------------    ------------     ------------      ------
1995    Apr 15, 1995    Sat    Apr 19, 1995    Wed    Apr 23, 1995     Apr 23, 1995      YES
1996    Apr  4, 1996    Thu    Apr  8, 1996    Mon    Apr 14, 1996     Apr 14, 1996      YES
1997    Apr 22, 1997    Tue    Apr 26, 1997    Sat    Apr 27, 1997     Apr 27, 1997      YES
1998    Apr 11, 1998    Sat    Apr 15, 1998    Wed    Apr 19, 1998     Apr 19, 1998      YES
1999    Mar 31, 1999    Wed    Apr  4, 1999    Sun    Apr 11, 1999     Apr 11, 1999      YES
2000    Apr 18, 2000    Tue    Apr 22, 2000    Sat    Apr 23, 2000     Apr 30, 2000      NO
2001    Apr  8, 2001    Sun    Apr 12, 2001    Thu    Apr 15, 2001     Apr 15, 2001      YES
2002    Apr 27, 2002    Sat    May  1, 2002    Wed    May  5, 2002     May  5, 2002      YES
2003    Apr 16, 2003    Wed    Apr 20, 2003    Sun    Apr 27, 2003     Apr 27, 2003      YES
2004    Apr  5, 2004    Mon    Apr  9, 2004    Fri    Apr 11, 2004     Apr 11, 2004      YES
2005    Apr 24, 2005    Sun    Apr 28, 2005    Thu    May  1, 2005     May  1, 2005      YES
2006    Apr 13, 2006    Thu    Apr 17, 2006    Mon    Apr 23, 2006     Apr 23, 2006      YES
2007    Apr  2, 2007    Mon    Apr  6, 2007    Fri    Apr  8, 2007     Apr  8, 2007      YES
2008    Apr 20, 2008    Sun    Apr 24, 2008    Thu    Apr 27, 2008     Apr 27, 2008      YES
2009    Apr  9, 2009    Thu    Apr 13, 2009    Mon    Apr 19, 2009     Apr 19, 2009      YES
2010    Mar 30, 2010    Tue    Apr  3, 2010    Sat    Apr  4, 2010     Apr  4, 2010      YES
2011    Apr 18, 2011    Mon    Apr 22, 2011    Fri    Apr 24, 2011     Apr 24, 2011      YES
2012    Apr  6, 2012    Fri    Apr 10, 2012    Tue    Apr 15, 2012     Apr 15, 2012      YES
2013    Apr 25, 2013    Thu    Apr 29, 2013    Mon    May  5, 2013     May  5, 2013      YES
2014    Apr 15, 2014    Tue    Apr 19, 2014    Sat    Apr 20, 2014     Apr 20, 2014      YES
2015    Apr  4, 2015    Sat    Apr  8, 2015    Wed    Apr 12, 2015     Apr 12, 2015      YES
2016    Apr 22, 2016    Fri    Apr 26, 2016    Tue    May  1, 2016     May  1, 2016      YES
2017    Apr 11, 2017    Tue    Apr 15, 2017    Sat    Apr 16, 2017     Apr 16, 2017      YES
2018    Mar 31, 2018    Sat    Apr  4, 2018    Wed    Apr  8, 2018     Apr  8, 2018      YES
2019    Apr 19, 2019    Fri    Apr 23, 2019    Tue    Apr 28, 2019     Apr 28, 2019      YES
2020    Apr  8, 2020    Wed    Apr 12, 2020    Sun    Apr 19, 2020     Apr 19, 2020      YES
2021    Apr 27, 2021    Tue    May  1, 2021    Sat    May  2, 2021     May  2, 2021      YES
2022    Apr 16, 2022    Sat    Apr 20, 2022    Wed    Apr 24, 2022     Apr 24, 2022      YES
2023    Apr  6, 2023    Thu    Apr 10, 2023    Mon    Apr 16, 2023     Apr 16, 2023      YES
2024    Apr 23, 2024    Tue    Apr 27, 2024    Sat    Apr 28, 2024     May  5, 2024      NO
2025    Apr 13, 2025    Sun    Apr 17, 2025    Thu    Apr 20, 2025     Apr 20, 2025      YES
2026    Apr  2, 2026    Thu    Apr  6, 2026    Mon    Apr 12, 2026     Apr 12, 2026      YES
2027    Apr 20, 2027    Tue    Apr 24, 2027    Sat    Apr 25, 2027     May  2, 2027      NO
2028    Apr  9, 2028    Sun    Apr 13, 2028    Thu    Apr 16, 2028     Apr 16, 2028      YES
2029    Mar 30, 2029    Fri    Apr  3, 2029    Tue    Apr  8, 2029     Apr  8, 2029      YES
2030    Apr 18, 2030    Thu    Apr 22, 2030    Mon    Apr 28, 2030     Apr 28, 2030      YES
2031    Apr  7, 2031    Mon    Apr 11, 2031    Fri    Apr 13, 2031     Apr 13, 2031      YES
2032    Apr 25, 2032    Sun    Apr 29, 2032    Thu    May  2, 2032     May  2, 2032      YES
 
As an alternative, or a supplement, to offering the AFM+4 method to his readers, I suggested to Fr. Emmanuel that he supply his readers with the exact dates of the nomikon faska/Paschal full moon/14th of Christian-Nisan for the full 19-year cycle.  (I posted this table earlier in this thread).  Unlike the AFM+4 technique, this technique would always be exact.  Easter, Eastern or Western, is the Sunday after the Paschal Full Moon.  Fr. Emmanuel's letter quoted above can be read as stating that I suggested he give, in his words, "a listing of the dates of Pascha", but I made no such suggestion.  My suggestion was to list the dates, not of Easters, but of the Eastern Orthodox Paschal full moons, a simple 19-year list that will be valid for more than 100 years to come.  
 
I also wrote to Fr. Emmanuel that I thought it misleading to describe the Paschalion in terms of the Jewish calendar, since the notion that the paschalion contains a built-in mathematical dependence (the "Zonaras proviso") on the Jewish calendar is spurious.  Readers of these boards will not be surprised that I hold this opinion, since I stated it earlier in this thread:  the Christian paschalion is entirely self-consistent and makes no external reference to the Rabbinic or any other calendar.
 

 



#28 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 10:58 PM

I would like to thank Timothy for his erudite and very informative posts. I find them very helpful to the discussion. There have been so many "explanations" that try to empirically account for the mechanics that Timothy has so clearly laid out for us to consider.



#29 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 11:08 PM

Well, the fact is, the Church is kind of a mess right now. There are all kinds of issues and let's not tempt schism any more than necessary, even for very sound, logical reasons. I think your approach would be the best one, logically speaking, but Kosta's is probably the better one in a practical/ diplomatic sense.

 

Yeah, well, if you read the Epistles of the Apostles, the writings of many Fathers, and history in general, the Church has ALWAYS been kind of a mess of one sort of the other. If it wasn't battling Nestorians, or arguing about what date the Church should use for Pascha with the Quartodecimans, it was arguing over whether or not icons were appropriate, or how much authority the Pope really has … and so on and so forth. Sometimes diplomacy and practicality came into play, and sometimes it didn't. The Church wasn't that diplomatic with the Quartodecimans. It did what it deemed right, with courage and determination. Oh that today's Church could do the same. But as more than one Father has pointed out, we are not as strong in our Faith these days as they were. I, for one, find that a little sad.

 

Herman the somewhat sad



#30 Kosta

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 05:14 AM

Timothy,  what in the world is all that jargon. All we need to do is decide whether its neccesary to reset the fixed date of the equinox, in which case we choose a date from March 20-23. Then apply the same tables to that.  



#31 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 11:28 PM

Timothy,  what in the world is all that jargon. All we need to do is decide whether its neccesary to reset the fixed date of the equinox, in which case we choose a date from March 20-23. Then apply the same tables to that.  

You seem not to have read what I wrote.  I was not proposing an upgrade to the Eastern paschalion (I have done that in other posts.)  I was proposing a simple way of describing the workings of the Eastern paschalion as it now is.

 

But since you bring up the matter of possible future adjustments,  I will say that the paschalion has a solar part and a lunar part.  Moving your equinox forward by 13 days will not move your lunar months forward by 4 days.  The only effect moving the equinox will have on the lunar side is to change, for some years, which lunar month is chosen as the Paschal lunar month.  It will not bring your tabular moon's phases to greater agreement with the visible moon. Changing the equinox and changing the lunar months can be done independently of each other, and to restore your paschalion to its original relationship to the seasons and the movements of the luminaries, you need to do both.


Edited by Timothy Phillips, 18 April 2013 - 11:33 PM.


#32 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 03:11 PM

 Fr. Emmanuel's letter quoted above can be read as stating that I suggested he give, in his words, "a listing of the dates of Pascha", but I made no such suggestion.  My suggestion was to list the dates, not of Easters, but of the Eastern Orthodox Paschal full moons, a simple 19-year list that will be valid for more than 100 years to come.  

 

Oops.  I should have written "almost 100 years to come."  The table I had in mind was the one I posted in #12 above, reproduced here for convenience:

 

 


                                Gregorian date 
Year of cycle | Gregorian PFM | of Julian PFM (νομικον φασκα)
-------------  --------------  ---------------
1             | April 14      | April 18
2             | April 3       | April 7
3             | March 23      | April 26
4             | April 11      | April 15
5             | March 31      | April 4
6             | April 18      | April 23
7             | April 8       | April 12
8             | March 28      | May 1
9             | April 16      | April 20
10            | April 5       | April 9
11            | March 25      | April 28
12            | April 13      | April 17
13            | April 2       | April 6
14            | March 22      | April 25
15            | April 10      | April 14
16            | March 30      | April 3
17            | April 17      | April 22
18            | April 7       | April 11
19            | March 27      | April 30
 
The Gregorian column is valid until 2200, but the Julian column only until 2100, because in that year the difference between the calendars changes from 13 days to 14 days, and the Julian dates, which remain constant in the Julian calendar, must be re-mapped into the Gregorian.   
 
The year labeled "1" corresponds to 1995, 2014, 2033, and so on every 19 years.  Year 2 is 1996, 2015, 2034, etc.  Years 3-19 follow in order.
 
To reproduce the Julian column almost from scratch, start with the year-1 date of April 18th (April 5 Julian).  The Eastern Orthodox full moon for each subsequent year is obtained by subtracting 11 or (if subtracting 11 would produce a date prior to April 3rd Gregorian/March 21 Julian) adding 19.  So April 18 - 11 days = April 7.  April 7 - 11 days would move past April 3, so we must use April 7 + 19 = April 26.  April 26 - 11 = April 15; April 15 - 11 = April 4; April 4 + 19 = April 23, and so on until 19 years have been obtained.  The cycle wraps back to the 1st year by moving forward 12 days, rather than 11.  In the Latin west, this extra day was called the saltus lunae or "moon's jump."

Edited by Timothy Phillips, 20 April 2013 - 03:20 PM.


#33 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 01:33 AM


 

Timothy,  what in the world is all that jargon. All we need to do is decide whether its neccesary to reset the fixed date of the equinox, in which case we choose a date from March 20-23. Then apply the same tables to that.  

You seem not to have read what I wrote.  I was not proposing an upgrade to the Eastern paschalion (I have done that in other posts.)  I was proposing a simple way of describing the workings of the Eastern paschalion as it now is.

 

But since you bring up the matter of possible future adjustments,  I will say that the paschalion has a solar part and a lunar part.  Moving your equinox forward by 13 days will not move your lunar months forward by 4 days.  The only effect moving the equinox will have on the lunar side is to change, for some years, which lunar month is chosen as the Paschal lunar month.  It will not bring your tabular moon's phases to greater agreement with the visible moon. Changing the equinox and changing the lunar months can be done independently of each other, and to restore your paschalion to its original relationship to the seasons and the movements of the luminaries, you need to do both.

By way of illustration, tomorrow (meaning, starting at sunset tonight) is the Julian paschalion's Paschal full moon or nomikon faska / νομικον φασκα.  It is the day on which, according to the Julian paschalion, the moon is full.  Here is what this "full moon" looks like:

 

Attached File  navy_moon_20130429evening.jpg   42.8K   1 downloads

 

This discrepancy can be easily fixed by moving the old paschalion's lunar tables forward by 4 days.  Even an adjustment of only 3 days would considerably repair the discrepancy between what the old-calendar paschalion says the moon looks like, and what our eyes see.  But as Herman noted, there seems to be a lack of will.


Edited by Timothy Phillips, 30 April 2013 - 01:47 AM.


#34 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 09 October 2014 - 04:43 AM

Here is a copy of a message sent by the most senior active priest in our diocese (who, btw, is also quite a scholar).  He explains that the date of Pascha has absolutely nothing to do with actual astronomical equinoxes, full moons or other phenomena - nor does it have any real relationship with the Jewish Passover

The Church, over 1500 years ago, made a deliberate and conscious
decision to ignore the astronomical data, and established the vernal
equinox to be fixed on March 21 (Old Style), --no matter when the actual
vernal equinox occurs.
The Church also established Moon Cycle tables of its own, which do not
correspond to the current astronomical tables of the cycles of the moon.
 
Instead, the Church preferred to use perpetual tables, based on a purely
mathematical formula, knowing full well that these calculations would be
astronomically inaccurate.
 

 

My examination of the computistical writings of the 3rd-8th centuries does not support this statement.  The source documents support the proposition that reasonable astronomical accuracy was intended by some writers, and presupposed by all the others.



#35 Loucas

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Posted 11 October 2014 - 02:44 PM

Hello, may I be so bold as to simply leave you with this link. It is from the web site of the Archdiocese of America for the Greek Orthodox Church. And I hope it is helpful....http://www.goarch.or...th/ourfaith7050



#36 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 11 April 2015 - 03:28 PM

Father Andrew Stephen Damick writes about this question here:

 

http://blogs.ancient...-urban-legends/



#37 Kosta

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 05:16 PM

I take exception with Fr Andrew. Since nisan 14 cannot fall on or before the sabbath then it does not coincide with jewish Passover. He is also mistaken to say that in the 4th century Pascha coincided with Passover. In the year 333ad the west celebrated Pascha on April 22, while Athanasius epistle places it on April 15. This would be the only time it coincided with the jewish passover and we know as fact that the April 15 date is a miscalculation. Theories as to this mystery span from some error or tampering with the epistle to theorizing that Pascha was moved back not to coincide with the April 21 celebration of the founding of Rome.

As to Finland celebrating Pascha not with the rest of us is highly offensive.

#38 Kosta

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Posted 14 April 2015 - 05:43 PM

Correction, I meant nisan 14 cannot fall on or after easter sunday. Nisan 14 is the jewish passover but if thst day happens to be a sunday easter is pushed to the following week. Meaning exactly that , that the jewish festival must precede pascha. And in many writings of the Fathers this is how its described it did not start with 11th century canonists.

#39 Timothy Phillips

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 01:37 AM

Correction, I meant nisan 14 cannot fall on or after easter sunday. Nisan 14 is the jewish passover but if thst day happens to be a sunday easter is pushed to the following week. Meaning exactly that , that the jewish festival must precede pascha. And in many writings of the Fathers this is how its described it did not start with 11th century canonists.

That is not what Fr. Andrew is writing about.



#40 Kosta

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Posted 15 April 2015 - 02:24 AM

What he is writing about is nonsensical. Everyone knew and still know that the passover of the jews runs for 7 days. When Christ said He wished to eat the passover with his disciples, its universally known that he meant the first supper of passover day which modern jews call the Seder. Secondly claiming that in the 4th century Pascha preceded the jewish passover is false. This myth is derived from a single source thats repeated over and over . They conflate the roman usage which continued using the march 25 equinox in the 4th cenrury and dont tell you the council of Sardica was never implemented not even in 343 AD. All sources recognize an anomaly for the year 333ad, that anomaly is that it did not conform to the rules of Nicea!. That one instance is what they have in mind of a simultaneous celebration???

Edited by Kosta, 15 April 2015 - 02:25 AM.





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