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ROCOR and OCA


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#21 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 02:00 PM

"We're not gonna join you, you've gotta join us!"

Before the bolshevik coup, wasn't the USA essentially presumed to be under the omophor of Moscow? And, during that time, weren't there Greek groups that got around this matter by pretending to be "societies" or some other social group that merely happened to have religious observances instead of actually calling themselves parishes?

#22 Christophoros

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 01:07 PM

"We're not gonna join you, you've gotta join us!"

Before the bolshevik coup, wasn't the USA essentially presumed to be under the omophor of Moscow? And, during that time, weren't there Greek groups that got around this matter by pretending to be "societies" or some other social group that merely happened to have religious observances instead of actually calling themselves parishes?


"The Myth of Unity and the Origins of Jurisdictional Pluralism in American Orthodoxy", delivered at St. Vladimir's Seminary in 2009:

http://ancientfaith....h_of_past_unity

and the presenter's additional thoughts on the myth of past unity:

http://orthodoxhisto...-myth-of-unity/

#23 Isaac Crabtree

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Posted 30 September 2011 - 04:19 PM

You know, I was at one point a "rabid autocephalist" in the sense that I really bought into the idea that the OCA was canonically the legitimate Orthodox Church in America, period. I then realized that the OCA's own hierarchs, at least the ones I talked to, did not feel that way. I asked Archbishop Job-- Eternal Memory-- about whether the OCA would eventually "combine" with ROCOR, when he visited my very large OCA parish for their 90th Anniversary. Archbishop Job was such a pastor that he opened himself up for questions whenever he visited-- and these questions could be on any subject. He believed, in his own view, that ROCOR's "mission" was different from the OCA's. He said (I'm paraphrasing because it was awhile back) that ROCOR's mission was to maintain the heritage and culture of the Russian Church, while this was not the OCA's mission.

Of course this kind of begged the question-- but now I kind of see it differently. ROCOR isn't the remnant of "holy Russia" but is Russian in its heritage. But so is the OCA! I suppose the OCA's conception of fidelity to Orthodoxy has in some ways meant that some usages and disciplines from Russia were best left unapplied in America. I dunno. I have fond memories of my OCA parish, but I am grateful to once again be in a community that: a) has Vigils, and b) teaches people to prepare for holy Communion. There are abuses everywhere, I know, but there seems to be almost a protestant ethos in many OCA parishes, toward approaching the Chalice without recent confession or any kind of prayer rule or attendance at an evening service.

#24 Ilya Zhitomirskiy

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:59 PM

I know that OCA Eucharistic discipline is very lax, from personal experience. I have never known about communing heterodox people, but this would be an abuse if it happens. Metropolitan Jonah of the OCA has now moved to ROCOR, albeit no official arrangements are known yet, and he could be instrumental in a possible merger. My terms would be: Julian calendar, or both Julian and New Calendars for commemorations, regular confessions, consistent liturgics (Russian with Vigil, or Byzantine with Vespers and Orthros/Liturgy in the morning).

#25 Father David Moser

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 03:12 PM

I would like to remind everyone that "jurisdictional politics" are outside the scope of the forum. Thus speculations about conditions of a possible "merger" (btw I can tell you with a significant degree of confidence from fairly authoritative sources that there is, and in the foreseeable future will be, no merger between OCA and ROCOR - it is not even "on the table" from either side), or comparisons about the relative worthiness or "Orthodoxy" or canonicity of the various jurisdictions is beyond the scope of the forum and not appropriate. Let us please keep this thread, and others like it, to a simple statement of how practices are similar and how they differ without assigning value to those observations.

Fr David

#26 Father David Moser

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 03:12 PM

I would like to remind everyone that "jurisdictional politics" are outside the scope of the forum. Thus speculations about conditions of a possible "merger" (btw I can tell you with a significant degree of confidence from fairly authoritative sources that there is, and in the foreseeable future will be, no merger between OCA and ROCOR - it is not even "on the table" from either side), or comparisons about the relative worthiness or "Orthodoxy" or canonicity of the various jurisdictions is beyond the scope of the forum and not appropriate. Let us please keep this thread, and others like it, to a simple statement of how practices are similar and how they differ without assigning value to those observations.

Fr David

#27 Anna Stickles

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Posted 07 January 2013 - 01:42 PM

It is likely that the damages done by an over zealous nationalism are finding some degree of healing through the unusual jurisdictional situation here in America, where the Church is forced to make conscious in a cooperative way what is essential and cannot be compromised on, and what allowance there is for legitimate variation in tradition, and what economia, good pastoral management, is appropriate for growth. One thing I love about the Russian and OCA priests I know is that they are truly Orthodox in being patient and careful in how they approach these growing pains. There is an ability to recognize the unique gifts of each jurisdiction, as well as allow for the fact that we are not perfect but rather growing together.

The Russian church in her long experience of being Orthodox and particularly in how the gift of spiritual fatherhood has developed to a high degree in her tradition, tends to be looked to by many in the OCA for leadership and support in the various struggles. But the Russian Church herself understands how her responsibility is to help the younger less stable churches develop their own healthy truly Orthodox life, not absorb them. A parent doesn't try to remake their children in their own image, but rather help them grow up in the image of God in which we are all made, according to the free will and given circumstances in which the child finds themselves.

#28 Ilya Zhitomirskiy

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Posted 09 January 2013 - 09:25 PM

I'm not sure that a ROCOR-OCA merger is likely, just possible. However, my belief is that the OCA should adopt ROCOR praxis, because OCA liturgics are simply the "lite" version of ROCOR liturgics, for most parishes. The OCA Diocese of the West has liturgics that are practically one-to-one with ROCOR, with some minor translation differences.There are pretty good OCA-ROCOR relationships there, and the rest of the OCA should follow the DOW's lead.




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