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Differences in North American Orthodox jurisdictions


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#21 Paul Cowan

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 01:21 AM

Certainly the Antiochians I've visited seem even more culturally American, the music was almost nostalgically Southern Gospel in it's style.


Uhhhhh, no.

#22 D. W. Dickens

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 04:12 AM

Hrm. I can only tell you what I experienced. 4 part, southern gospel "old rugged cross" style harmony.

#23 Paul Cowan

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 05:48 AM

Hrm. I can only tell you what I experienced. 4 part, southern gospel "old rugged cross" style harmony.


I have heard barber shop quartet type singing in a Russian monastery (St. Panteleimon on Athos), but only Byzantine chant in the Antiochians I have visited. Maybe they were doing a tent revival for hillbillies that Sunday? Maybe it was a transitional service for new PC converts? hummm:rolleyes:

#24 D. W. Dickens

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 06:10 PM

I'm told by my priest that what I experienced was associated with Father Gilquist's group and that they do several things slightly different as the Church is allowing them time to implement changes.

He had heard some say that the music was a bit on the "sentimental" side. I've come to learn in the meantime "sentimental" is not a complement in Orthodoxy. But I've been thinking about this, if the Greeks can use Greek music and the Russians, the Russian style, it seems salvific for Americans to at least take some Americana flavor.

I keep hearing how Orthodoxy isn't destructive (in Finland, in Serbia, in Alaska, whatever) it preserves and redirects culture toward God. I wonder why this is more problematic with America? Each jurisdiction certainly takes it's own path on this. My parish priest is very interested in reaching out to the local Hispanic population. He's always talking about how pious the community is, they only need to be properly invited to Church.

I can see the problem. I can't picture what slavo-hispanic culture would look like. :-)

#25 Father David Moser

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 08:00 PM

I can see the problem. I can't picture what slavo-hispanic culture would look like. :-)


For a good look at that, visit Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco and visit with Fr Yaroslav who grew up in Argentina. Although he is of Russian extraction, Russian is a second language and culture to him and English/American is third. Although priest at the Russian Cathedral, he maintains many of his hispanic cultural traits (including some wonderful beef bbq's).

Fr David Moser

#26 Rick H.

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 08:23 PM

Father, now you are going to get Paul started on BBQ again! :-)

#27 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 09:41 PM

I'm told by my priest that what I experienced was associated with Father Gilquist's group and that they do several things slightly different as the Church is allowing them time to implement changes.

He had heard some say that the music was a bit on the "sentimental" side. I've come to learn in the meantime "sentimental" is not a complement in Orthodoxy. But I've been thinking about this, if the Greeks can use Greek music and the Russians, the Russian style, it seems salvific for Americans to at least take some Americana flavor.

I keep hearing how Orthodoxy isn't destructive (in Finland, in Serbia, in Alaska, whatever) it preserves and redirects culture toward God. I wonder why this is more problematic with America? Each jurisdiction certainly takes it's own path on this. My parish priest is very interested in reaching out to the local Hispanic population. He's always talking about how pious the community is, they only need to be properly invited to Church.

I can see the problem. I can't picture what slavo-hispanic culture would look like. :-)


If you want to see and hear some culture-bending and have the bandwidth, check this out on YouTube: Hospo dipo milwi.

As for me, I have acquired a taste for Prostopenjie (plain chant), which is already a blend of the many differing cultures that touch the Carpathian mountain regions. It is down home Slavic hillbilly music and could easily adapt a little more (if necessary) to accommodate American modes.

Herman the singing Pooh

#28 Rick H.

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 09:49 PM

Herman, you have talked about his kind of music before "Slavic/Hillbilly" . . . I would really love to hear a sample of this, do you have any links to share for this?

#29 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 10:00 PM

Herman, you have talked about his kind of music before "Slavic/Hillbilly" . . . I would really love to hear a sample of this, do you have any links to share for this?


Can't answer for the quality, but it at least gives you a bit of a taste:

Carpatho-Russian Plain Chant

#30 Rick H.

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Posted 07 February 2009 - 10:46 PM

Thanks so much Herman, I had a feeling I would like this. It both sends chills and brings a spiritual warmth. In Let Our Lips Be Filled I can hear the mountain harmony I had hoped would be there, especially in the female voices. I wonder if you have seen/heard the movie "Cold Mountain" and can hear a very similar style/harmony in the congregational singing there?

I seem to never be ceased to be amazed at what a difference it makes to hear Orthodox chanting in English, now to this a familiar and appealing style. Thank you. Very good/touching. Very kind.


PS I wonder if there's any chance you are the lead picker on any of these?

#31 Theodora E.

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 01:49 AM

Before I moved to the OCA a year ago, I was in an Antiochian parish for about five years.

Metropolitan Philip allows Antiochian parishes to use the music of anyone they're in communion with. Hence, you will hear a LOT of Russian melodies. My former Antiochian parish did half and half, Byzantine and Russian. Something to note: when you've got a mission just starting up, Russian melodies are MUCH easier to learn/sing that the Byzantine. On the Antiochian website, Department of Sacred Music, the sheet music listed includes a good number of Russian settings. Even the local Antiochian parish that is mostly ethnicly Arab uses a Russian anaphora.

David Drillock, professor emeritus of liturgical music at St. Vlad's gave a talk at the SVS Summer Institute a few years ago on his life in Church music, that also happens to chronicle the development of Orthodox music in English.

http://www.svots.edu...n_Church_Music/

Early on, in the late 1930s, the Antiochians (known as the Syrians then) were using Russian melodies, Professor Drillock recounts:

In 1938 Fr. Michael Gelsinger, a priest of the Syrian Orthodox Archdiocese, published a small book, Orthodox Hymns in English, which contained forty-five hymns in English. Included in the collection were the hymns for the Liturgy and selected pieces to “encourage some participation in singing Vespers and Orthros.” These adaptations of Fr. Gelsinger were based on traditional Russian settings of the tones, simple settings by Russian composers such as Bortniansky, Arkhangelsky, Dvoretsky etc, and modifications of the Greek melodies of Sakellarides....

In 1950 the Syrian Antiochian Archdiocese published “Three Divine Liturgies in Music” for use in the churches of that archdiocese. Metropolitan Antony Bashir, who later was to become a very strong advocate for Orthodox unity in America, strongly believed that if his parishes were to exist in America, they would have to adopt the English language as the official language in which services were celebrated. The publication of this book was instrumental in putting into action the metropolitan’s desire. The book is interesting for two reasons. All the music in the book was prepared and arranged for four-voices by an Orthodox friend of the Syrians, Professor Michael Hilko who was the choir director at St. John the Baptist Russian Orthodox Church in Passaic, New Jersey. The first liturgy was in English and contained harmonizations by Professor Hilko. There were settings based on Byzantine melodies and Russian Bakhmetev tonal melodies. The Cherubic Hymn was Bortniasky’s Number 5. For the two Arabic liturgies that followed, Prof. Hilko was given the Arabic text in phoenetics and then someone sang the melodies to him. He reproduced them in western notation and then arranged them for four part harmony. Prof. Hilko’s music can still be heard in Antiochian churches. In fact, Fr. [Paul] Lazor often remarks that he has to go to an Antiochian church to hear his favorite Russian church melodies.
(emphasis mine)

So, you will see that there is a long history of Russian melodies being sung in Antiochian parishes. From my limited personal experience, as well as talking with Orthodox email buddies across the country, Mily Balakirev's arrangement of "The Angel Cried" is heard more at Pascha than the Byzantine arrangement.

#32 Paul Cowan

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 03:23 AM

Father, now you are going to get Paul started on BBQ again! :-)


Did someone say BBQ?

Now Herman, If you're gonna be singing Russian to Hillbillies, best to have you a pig roasting nearby. Other than the fact they got so many of them, I never did figure out why hillbillies like pork over beef.

Alas father, Rick is right, we have already covered BBQ pretty extensively elsewhere. :(

Paul

#33 Father David Moser

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 03:45 AM

Other than the fact they got so many of them, I never did figure out why hillbillies like pork over beef.


I think thats pretty much it - there's more hogs (wild and domestic) in them thar hills than there are buffalo.

Oh and while we're on the subject, I just want to mention that I watched Lil' Abner on the Turner Movie Channel last night. Quite enjoyable - the last time I remember watching it was in Jr High. (now we are realllly off topic)

Fr David Moser

#34 Theodora E.

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 04:10 AM

This is REALLY off-topic, but it's appropriate to the off-topic direction.

The BBQ Song




#35 Ryan

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Posted 08 February 2009 - 08:22 PM

I've heard recordings of Orthodox in Kenya and Zimbabwe where they introduced some subtle drumming and rhythm into their hymns.

#36 Isa Almisry

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 03:29 AM

For a good look at that, visit Holy Virgin Cathedral in San Francisco and visit with Fr Yaroslav who grew up in Argentina. Although he is of Russian extraction, Russian is a second language and culture to him and English/American is third. Although priest at the Russian Cathedral, he maintains many of his hispanic cultural traits (including some wonderful beef bbq's).

Fr David Moser


Fitting that it should be in San Francisco, where Russia and Spain once met. María Concepción Argüello, the daughter of Spain's governor for Upper California of the viceroyalty of New Spain, born at the Presidio of San Francisco almost married Duke Nikolai Rezanov, the founder of the Russian-American company which stretched down to Fort Ross (Rossia, "Russia") in Sonoma county. He died going back with a treaty for the czar's signature and for permission to marry, Maria never married and became a nun.

#37 Daniel Harrison

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Posted 10 February 2009 - 08:02 AM

I think Ecumenism would be a great and a VERY important topic to include in the discussion. This has been a hot topic on my mind,
ever since i converted to Orthodoxy. It seems that most Jurisdictions in America, are in some type of support of ecumenism, aside from
ROCOR it seems, which I love. I however stand side by side with the Monks of Esphigmenou on this issue with the Double Headed Eagle and
Orthodoxia E Thanatos tattooed on my chest.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I know especially in the GOA that ecumenism it seems more acceptable, then in others, then again
The a GOA parish in Orange County did tonsure a female reader...

I would address this issue of Joint Prayer, Ecumenical "dialog", and Communion between the Orthodox and Heterodox.
When I was in boot camp the Orthodox OCA chaplain that I had Communed a Coptic Monophysite because he did not have
a clergy member of his home at the Recruit depot in San Diego. My two cents...

In Christ
Nektarios

#38 Ryan

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 05:46 AM

I think Ecumenism would be a great and a VERY important topic to include in the discussion. This has been a hot topic on my mind,
ever since i converted to Orthodoxy. It seems that most Jurisdictions in America, are in some type of support of ecumenism, aside from
ROCOR it seems, which I love.


Ecumenism is a tough one, in my opinion, because the proponents and opponents have different definitions for the word, and often end up talking past each other. For most anti-ecumenists, the word is virtually synonymous with the "branch theory." Orthodox ecumenists generally reject the branch theory, and usually just see ecumenism as dialogue and a kind of missionary activity.

In my opinion, ecumenism, however it's defined, has problematic aspects. I think the "pan-heresy" rhetoric might at times be overblown. On the other hand, there are always things like the Balamand agreement and the "two lungs" statement that are worrisome and which Orthodox Ecumenists seem to ignore in debates on the subject. Overall, I would say participation in groups like the WCC is not worth the discord it causes within the Church. Even if we are there simply to present an Orthodox witness to other Christians, we should face the simple facts- the average Christian, Orthodox or not, does not follow the proceedings of the WCC. Any "witnessing" done at the WCC is chiefly toward official representatives of other denominations, who are unlikely to be swayed, especially in such a relativistic context. So, from the missionary standpoint, membership in the WCC is at best irrelevant in my opinion. At worst, it gives casual observers the impression that the Orthodox recognize the validity of the other churches.


Please correct me if I am wrong. I know especially in the GOA that ecumenism it seems more acceptable, then in others


I think all of the SCOBA jurisdictions in the States are pretty involved in it. Unfortunately, you won't hear much questioning of it at the higher levels.

The a GOA parish in Orange County did tonsure a female reader...


Is this something expressly forbidden? I don't know much about how the position of reader is defined. My parish had a woman read the epistle last Sunday, though I don't think she is actually a reader.

#39 D. W. Dickens

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Posted 13 February 2009 - 06:09 AM

>> The a GOA parish in Orange County did tonsure a female reader...
> Is this something expressly forbidden?

I know of a female reader in the OCA south as well and have heard of women (nuns, and specifically virgins) going behind the altar as well and assisting the priest while he serves at the monastery.

I'm not sure if "Differences in Jurisdictions" is a good way to look at the way Bishops run their own houses. I doubt you'll find any application of permissiveness that would make for a Jurisdiction-wise consistency. My priest tells me that there are wide differences in certain OCA parishes even in the Diocese of the West under a single Bishop!

#40 Anthony Stokes

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Posted 14 February 2009 - 04:04 PM

>> The a GOA parish in Orange County did tonsure a female reader...
> Is this something expressly forbidden?

I know of a female reader in the OCA south as well and have heard of women (nuns, and specifically virgins) going behind the altar as well and assisting the priest while he serves at the monastery.


Nuns are a different story when it comes to the altar. Also, there is a difference between a woman being blessed to read, as is the case in many churches, and a woman being tonsured an actual Reader. I don't know of that happening in the OCA DOS, but there are many churches where women have been blessed to read at services.

Sbdn. Anthony

Edited by Anthony Stokes, 14 February 2009 - 04:05 PM.
fized quotes





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