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From the old calendar to the new calendar


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#1 S. David

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 07:28 PM

Beloved in Christ,

In our church in Jerusalem, we are facing a severe problem regarding the date of the Nativity, where the Christian sociaty is diverse between Greek Orthodox, catholic and protestant. Each one of us has relatives and relations from others, so, it is univetabale to calibrate the Nativity socially in 25-12 according to the new calender. However, the Greek Orthodox Church refuses to calibrate the Nativity Litrugically in this date, where it is done every year on 25-12 according to the old calender. As a result, we are (The Greek Orthodox) lost between the Nativity according to the new and old calenders. How to solve this problem? I mean where is the problem from switching from old to new calender?

In Christ

#2 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 27 December 2009 - 09:30 PM

The only technical problem would be that the method for setting the date of Pascha would need to be revised along with it since it is based on the Old Calendar, and THAT is a very sensitive subject. Personally I think this could be a good thing, in that we would finally actually obey the canons on the subject, unlike what we do now. This does NOT mean we would have to use the "Gregorian" method for setting Easter, it also has serious problems. We would have to come up with a fully Orthodox method that the west would probably be happy to adopt as well.

The only other thing to be aware of (I suspect you are already fully aware) is that change does not come easy to Orthodoxy.

Edited by Herman Blaydoe, 27 December 2009 - 09:32 PM.
Editorial editing


#3 Eric Peterson

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 01:14 AM

I'm not sure how you're "lost." I mean, in America and the Western world by and large, there is also this issue, and people work through it as best they can. Sometimes that means visiting family on New Calendar Christmas, and then celebrating Old Calendar Christmas with one's Orthodox friends. For those already on the New Calendar, it's the same for Easter. For Americans on the New Calendar, Thanksgiving is settled much the same way. Eat your turkey so grandma doesn't get offended, and then continue with the fast the next day.

#4 Kosta

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 03:41 AM

How is it that same family members and relatives in Jordan are of different faiths? How did this come to be? When did protestantism enter the picture, and do christians have muslim family members, which can interfere with each others religious observances? For instance as a greek here in America i have a few dozen family members, and all are still Orthodox so such a dillema would be new to me.

#5 Eric Peterson

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 04:31 AM

Well, there are times when sections of the family convert to other religions. Sometimes this happens when members of a Protestant family become Orthodox. Other times, sadly, sections of an Orthodox family become something else. Sometimes there are mixed marriages. My impression is that this situation is perhaps more common in the West, and particularly amongst "Western" Americans, some of whom change religious affiliation more than once in their lives.

#6 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 03:30 AM

I have been to Jerusalem and I also have a Palestinian God-child ... I think that people from countries like America, Australia, England etc need to pause before they start judging these people ... it is a completely different world in their countries. Completely different! Something that Western society finds very hard to comprehend and are also very quick to judge with their own modern mind ...

#7 S. David

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 07:13 PM

Beloved in Christ,

We used to visit our Non-Orthodox relatives in their date, and then they visit us in our Nativity date, but, recently this no more exists, where we see even the Orthodox themselves visit each other in 25-12 according to the new calender. I really do not know how to solve this issue, specially the Orthodox people here is not ready to hear from the Church for several reasons, one of them is the Greek-Arab issue in the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate.

As mentioned ealrier, this mixture comes from marriage basically, where my grandfather, for example, married in the catholic church because the Orthodox Church refused to marry him, because his wife (my grandmother) is direclty blood-related to him, a case which was forbidden in his days.

The question in mind is: Greece and others follow the new calender in calibrating the Nativity, but they calibrate the Easter according to the old calender. Is this wrong? why? in other words: Can we say this is a solution?

In Christ

#8 Yolanda

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 07:56 PM

Greece and others follow the new calender calibrate the Easter according to the old calender
__________________________________________
this is the crux of the problem

#9 Kosta

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 07:01 AM

The Jerusalem Patriarchate will never use the new calendar, its just not practical. There would be fistfights and riots between the factions, too hard to share the churches amongst great crowds of pilgrims. It would be a disaster. Again im quite saddened that the latins have meddled in the affairs of anothers jurisdiction and have caused such divisions, recruiting arabs to a heterodox priesthood in order to proselytise against the Orthodox and promote phyletism.

#10 S. David

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 08:16 AM

I think the problem arises when some people said that the two faiths: Orthodox and latin catholic, agreed to celebrate the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the new calender, and the Easter according to the old calender. Indeed, it is the case: the latin catholic celebrates the Easter with us. However, I am not sure who did assign this agreement, because the Greek Orthodox Pariarchate strictly refuses to celebrate the Nativity accorrding to the new calender.

I say that we can agree with others to seperate between the civil calender and church calender, and hence celebrate all the feasts according to the Church calender. Of course this needs alot of efforts to be done.

In Christ

#11 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 02:37 PM

I say that we can agree with others to seperate between the civil calender and church calender, and hence celebrate all the feasts according to the Church calender. Of course this needs alot of efforts to be done.


What needs to be done is to revise the Paschalion so that it once again obeys the canons, since it really doesn't now. But changing calendars, for some reason is a very difficult thing for a society to do, and even the Old Calendar will have to be revised eventually so at best we are merely pushing the problem off for others to deal with. Why not simply fix it now using a better calendar and better reckoning for Pascha? Other than because people will riot because they don't realize that God is not "on" a calendar instituted by pagans?

#12 Eric Peterson

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Posted 30 December 2009 - 04:09 PM

As I understand it, the ecclesial bodies traditionally in the Holy Land cannot change their practices because of the old Ottoman Status Quo agreement.

#13 Kosta

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 07:10 AM

This problem is mostly arab nationalism, where many Orthodox palestinians are pitted between the Church, heterodox groups lead by native clergy, and those seeking to serve the agenda of their muslim peers. Just a few days ago 13 Orthodox leaders decided to boycott Christmas next week because of land that was leased to Israel. Land leased out, which the muslim sympathizers falsely claim was sold to Israel. This was the same false charge againsy Ireneous. You can criticise if the terms of the lease was disadvantageous, a bad business descision but instead they believe it was sold off forever. Why does the egyptian muslim organization known as the PLO care about church land? Thats our land from the time of the byzantine empire, not muslim land nor jewish land. If Palestinian muslims want to lease it they can outbbid the jews, thats how it works. You dont spread rumors and start celebrating with the heterodox instead.

#14 Paul Cowan

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 07:18 AM

Dear Kosta,

How does this relate to old calendar versus new calendar? I don't see the connection except the number of priests was 13.

#15 Kosta

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Posted 01 January 2010 - 07:46 AM

No not priests neccesarily, 13 palestinian Orthodox leaders, doesnt neccesarily mean they were (all) priests, informed the PA they will boycott Christmas and for the organization to do likewise. Armenians in the Holy Land celebrate Jan7 and the Copts who are closely related to palestinianns do the same. Where do you think this confusion comes from? The original poster in post #7 said they are not ready to listen to the Patriarchate because of greek-arab relations. This is also fueled by the meddling of Antioch who refuses to admit that the indigenous palestinians were greek-speaking byzantine citizens (not syriac speaking), whose language was eclipsed by arab invaders, and during that time greek could only be used in the liturgy. Thus the church remained greek-speaking but over the centuries the laity was arabized, beoming the exclusive language. Antioch likes the idea of a pan- middleastern church, sees an obstacle in the anti-ecumenist Jerusalem Patriarchate who doesnt view jacobites and copts as "sister" churches.

#16 S. David

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 11:51 AM

Please let us focus on the main problem, which is the fixed feasts according to the new calender or the old calender and why. Based on that, can anyone write in details the differences between the two calenders, and where they come from, and what are the main problems we run into because of adopting the new calender.

In Christ

#17 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 02:46 PM

Please let us focus on the main problem, which is the fixed feasts according to the new calender or the old calender and why. Based on that, can anyone write in details the differences between the two calenders, and where they come from, and what are the main problems we run into because of adopting the new calender.

In Christ


I cannot reply in detail to this. However the main point that is raised is that the Church calendar is based on the way in which it is meant to harmonize the fixed daily feasts (the menaion or daily cycle) with the Paschal cycle.

Those who argue for the OC usually say or imply that the harmony found before the calendar change is essential to the nature of the calendar as a Church calendar.

Those who argue for the NC usually say or imply that this previous connection between the two cycles is not essential to its character.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#18 S. David

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 04:21 PM

I cannot reply in detail to this. However the main point that is raised is that the Church calendar is based on the way in which it is meant to harmonize the fixed daily feasts (the menaion or daily cycle) with the Paschal cycle.

Those who argue for the OC usually say or imply that the harmony found before the calendar change is essential to the nature of the calendar as a Church calendar.

Those who argue for the NC usually say or imply that this previous connection between the two cycles is not essential to its character.

In Christ- Fr Raphael


Bless father,

So, we can not seperate between the fixed and moved feasts by adopting a calender for each of them, because this leads to "situations" which were not meant to occur.

The question again is: what is the practical solution to such a dilemma? In countries where the dominant are Orthodox like Russia, celebrating on Jan 7 causes no problems, but it is a "social" issue in the mixed-Christians sociaties.

In Christ

#19 Paul Cowan

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 06:11 PM

In countries where the dominant are Orthodox like Russia, celebrating on Jan 7 causes no problems, but it is a "social" issue in the mixed-Christians sociaties.

In Christ


In the US, I can't tell you how difficult it is to convince my employer Pascha was not on the same date as his Easter and I need a couple extra days off. I am NC. Protestant countries and their dates will never jive with those who follow the OC. (Old calendar or Orthodox church, take your pick).

We are called to be persecuted. It is a small thing to try to convince my boss I need a few extra days off during the year that do not fall on "standard" days off. If nothing else, I will call in "sick" those days.

Paul

#20 Dimitris

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Posted 02 January 2010 - 06:19 PM

Those who argue for the NC usually say or imply that this previous connection between the two cycles is not essential to its character.

With all respect, Father Raphael, I don't think that is the argument of those who favour the new calendar. I don't recall anyone in favour of the new calendar saying that there is no basic requirement to keep the paschal cycle and the daily cycle connected in a harmonical way. Instead, new calendarists claim there also has to be a connection between the calendar (man made thing) and the actual celestial movements (God made thing).




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