Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

From the old calendar to the new calendar


  • Please log in to reply
227 replies to this topic

#41 Herman Blaydoe

Herman Blaydoe

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,157 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 29 January 2012 - 07:53 PM

Coincided in Christian countries. Countries with different religions might have different calendars. Would it be good to adopt theirs, depending on the locality? In addition secular government might make a calendar completely incompatible with church services as it was attempted during French or Bolshevik Revolutions.


Speaking of red herrings, I like mine pickled. We only need to pick one calendar, like the early Church did. They did not pick the Jewish calendar, they did not go with different calendars in different places. They used the Roman Imperial calendar because it was the most convenient and most accurate calendar available at the time. Why can't we just do exactly what they did? Why not use the real Vernal Equinox as the Church intended rather than an artificial date? Why not match the Liturgical Cycle of worship to the celestial dance that God put in motion to proclaim His Glory? Now THAT is a proper and sacred icon, don't you think?

Herman the "does anybody really know what time it is?" Pooh

#42 Fr Raphael Vereshack

Fr Raphael Vereshack

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,420 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 29 January 2012 - 08:15 PM

Herman wrote:

Why not match the Liturgical Cycle of worship to the celestial dance that God put in motion to proclaim His Glory? Now THAT is a proper and sacred icon, don't you think?


This is precisely what those who refer to the OC point to as its most important basis- that it marks sacred time in a special way whereas modern time has been desacralized for us, and only dead mechanical time remains in this world.

The issue then to me seems to make of the Church calendar something that refers to the sacredness of time that is all around us again. Whether it's OC or NC or whatever how to recover this sense.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

#43 Father David Moser

Father David Moser

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 3,581 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Cleric

Posted 29 January 2012 - 09:20 PM

Herman the "does anybody really know what time it is?" Pooh


Does any body really care?

Though I can't imagine why;
we'll all have time enough to die.

Fr David

#44 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,035 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 29 January 2012 - 10:07 PM

This is precisely what those who refer to the OC point to as its most important basis- that it marks sacred time in a special way whereas modern time has been desacralized for us, and only dead mechanical time remains in this world. The issue then to me seems to make of the Church calendar something that refers to the sacredness of time that is all around us again. Whether it's OC or NC or whatever how to recover this sense.In Christ-Fr Raphael


I think the importance of this way of looking at things is further highlighted if we consider the ways in which the secular western world has 'desacralized' the computation of time such as the designation of Monday as the first day of the week. I personally do care that secular authorities find such ways to create a gulf between the sacred and the world. The so-called NC was the result of such 'desacralization'. I do not think adherence to the NC puts one's salvation in doubt but it is regrettable that in such ways the Church and the world in which it exists become less and less in synch.

#45 Fr Raphael Vereshack

Fr Raphael Vereshack

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,420 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:01 PM

Does any body really care?

Though I can't imagine why;
we'll all have time enough to die.

Fr David


The same sort of thing occurred to me as 'I was walking down the street one day'

#46 Fr Raphael Vereshack

Fr Raphael Vereshack

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,420 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:07 PM

I think the importance of this way of looking at things is further highlighted if we consider the ways in which the secular western world has 'desacralized' the computation of time such as the designation of Monday as the first day of the week. I personally do care that secular authorities find such ways to create a gulf between the sacred and the world. The so-called NC was the result of such 'desacralization'. I do not think adherence to the NC puts one's salvation in doubt but it is regrettable that in such ways the Church and the world in which it exists become less and less in synch.


Something similar was also on my mind in my previous post. The normal way of putting it used to be that the NC existed to be contemporary with modern time; while the OC was an exact counter to this, taking time itself out of the grasp of the modern world and keeping it with the Church where its real significance could be treasured and maintained. Thus the absolutely impermeable divide between the two.

However what if we could return to an Orthodox understanding of sacred time permeating and transforming our time?

Just a thought.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael

#47 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,035 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:16 PM

Something similar was also on my mind in my previous post. The normal way of putting it used to be that the NC existed to be contemporary with modern time; while the OC was an exact counter to this, taking time itself out of the grasp of the modern world and keeping it with the Church where its real significance could be treasured and maintained. Thus the absolutely impermeable divide between the two.

However what if we could return to an Orthodox understanding of sacred time permeating and transforming our time?

Just a thought.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael


That might work if all local churches had the same calendar.

Though I can't imagine why;
we'll all have time enough to die.

'I was walking down the street one day'


Orthodoxy through Patristic, Monastic, Liturgical, and Pop Lyric Study

#48 Herman Blaydoe

Herman Blaydoe

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,157 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 29 January 2012 - 11:24 PM

This is precisely what those who refer to the OC point to as its most important basis- that it marks sacred time in a special way whereas modern time has been desacralized for us, and only dead mechanical time remains in this world.


While that makes a great soundbite, it is actually ironic in the extreme. It is actually counter to what both the ancient Jews and the young Church thought. Accuracy and conformance to God's Creation was important to them.

The issue then to me seems to make of the Church calendar something that refers to the sacredness of time that is all around us again. Whether it's OC or NC or whatever how to recover this sense.

In Christ
-Fr Raphael


How does using a calendar that breaks the relationship between our worship and how the Universe declares the glory of God establish sacredness? Using an arbitrary Vernal Equinox date 13 days after the actual event to calculate the supreme holy day of Pascha seems exactly like "dead mechanical time" to this bear of admittedly little brain. But what do I know.

Herman the "It's later than you think" Pooh

#49 Father David Moser

Father David Moser

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 3,581 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Cleric

Posted 30 January 2012 - 05:35 AM

"It's later than you think"


Only if you're going from the old calendar to the new - if you're going from new to old, its sooner than you think.

Fr David

#50 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,035 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 30 January 2012 - 09:16 AM

Why not use the real Vernal Equinox as the Church intended rather than an artificial date? Why not match the Liturgical Cycle of worship to the celestial dance that God put in motion to proclaim His Glory? Now THAT is a proper and sacred icon, don't you think?

Herman the "does anybody really know what time it is?" Pooh


I thought we did. Thus, this year, the vernal equinox is on 20 March. The first full moon after is on 6 April. The first Sunday after that is 8 April but that falls within the Jewish Passover which is 6-14 April and we have to have Pascha after the Passover so the first Sunday after Passover is 15 April. So, not an artificial date.

#51 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,517 posts

Posted 30 January 2012 - 09:58 AM

Easter is calculated using the moon not the solar calendar. The reason we cant use the 'real' equinox is because the fixed feast days would drift and not be kept in proper alignment. In other words the Church never intended to use the 'real' vernal equinox since it would have been impossible to keep the fixed feast days with the moveable feast days and still have proper fasting seasons and so on. Most fixed feasts were added decades and even centuries after the Pascha formulation, the church always used a fixed date for the equinox.

#52 Herman Blaydoe

Herman Blaydoe

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,157 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 30 January 2012 - 10:48 AM

Sorry Andreas and Kosta, but you are both wrong. The Vernal Equinox does vary somewhat, in that, due to the wobble of the Earth on its axis, it can happen either on March 20 or 21, so March 21 is chosen as THE date to make things a little easier. But it does NOT "drift" beyond those two days. That is what the adjustments for leap years is all about, to keep it from drifting. The Gregorian Calendar does a better job of compensating than the Julian. The Julian date IS drifting. The Orthodox calculation for Pascha uses the Julian 21 March date, NOT the Gregorian. Both the OC and NC churches use this calculation, which is why we both celebrate Pascha together, and it is what causes the apparent inconsistencies with the NC Menaion. And it is wrong, it violates the very canon people think it obeys.

It is rather complicated and confusing for sure. The thing is, we are not supposed to USE the Jewish calculation of Passover, THAT is what the canon is about, that is what is misunderstood. Check out this link: The Date of Pascha.

#53 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,517 posts

Posted 30 January 2012 - 11:38 AM

It is the fixed feasts that would drift if the equinox was calculated using actual observation. So we would be celebrating the Annunciation on Pentecost. The julian calendar is off by a few minutes each year while the gregorian is off by only a few seconds, so the problem isnt noticeable in the western calendar.

The revised julian calendar is the opposite, Pascha drifts into the future while the fixed feasts remain static. The Church added fixed feasts to the calendar before and after Nicea(mostly after), so its impossible that they meant to use the actual observation of the equinox as this would render a liturgical calender illogical. If the Church meant to use the actual observation of the moon, then they disregarded their own canon as soon as it was recieved.

The link you posted makes this point, that by the 6th century tables were devised to calculate Pascha using a 19 year cycle which we still use. Theres no evidence that the church ever used the real equinox, ive never come across any evidence that they intended or actually did use the actual equinox.

#54 Herman Blaydoe

Herman Blaydoe

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,157 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 30 January 2012 - 12:44 PM

Kosta, the issue becomes moot once Pascha and the Menaion are celebrated on the SAME calendar regardless, so switching the calculation of Pascha to the NC once the whole Church is using the NC would certainly solve all the problems. It is the artificial use of two calendars used to mollify the OC'ers that causes the apparent inconsistencies. It is ironic that the OC adherents use that as an argument against the NC.

At the time that the calendar was set for the Church, the date chosen and the Vernal Equinox were close together. Due to the inherent inaccuracies of the Julian calendar that is no longer adjusted as it was under a united Christian empire (by the astronomers in Alexandria under the Alexandrian Patriarch, the "Judge of the Universe"), the dates are diverging significantly. Since we are no longer using the Judge of the Universe, we ought to consider using an accurate calendar. That is what the Church of the Martyrs did, as best they could in the time they were in. Why would doing that now be somehow wrong?

#55 John Bundstein

John Bundstein

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 28 posts

Posted 30 January 2012 - 03:43 PM

OK folks this OC/NC debate is fun but to my simple mind there are a couple of things that don’t seem to wash for me, so if you can set me straight please do. There has been talk of the REAL Vernal Equinox am I missing something? There is a fake one running around? Or is someone just pulling my leg? There was a comment by Herman in posting #33, “And now the Vernal Equinox does NOT happen when the night and day are equal, but 13 days LATER.” Is that OC reckoning? It is my understanding that the sun crosses the plain of the Earth’s equator when God wills it, not on some arbitrary humanly decided date, March 21/22 NC/March 18/19 OC. I know that my poor little mind gets very confused trying to keep the two sets calendar dates together so maybe I am missing something here or someone is trying to pull the fluff over my eyes. Lets face it to a large extent what calendar date we call is case of “you call it Either, I call it eIther when in fact in sacred time it is Neither/neIther.”

And frankly personally I love it that the OC Nativity does not fall on the civil holiday that is December 25 NC. I really dislike the festival of greed that, that date has become. So the OC reckoning of the date gives me the time, space and peace to begin to contemplate the wonder and sacredness of THE DAY of Our Lords’ incarnation.

For me it doesn’t really make much difference which calendar is used (once the trauma of the change is gotten through, though I don’t see myself as rioting to get my 13 days back). But my Bishop says to use the OC so I do. And I think I would dislike going back to Nativity falling on that civil holiday again with the NC.

#56 Herman Blaydoe

Herman Blaydoe

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,157 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 30 January 2012 - 04:51 PM

A couple of issues: first off, it should be less about personal preference and more about what best preserves the iconic symbology, yes?

From the article I provided a link to earlier: "Since the First Ecumenical Council (325 AD), this principle for determining the Paschal date (nearest Sunday after the first full moon occurring no earlier than the vernal equinox) was the mandatory rule for the whole Christian Church and remains so even to this day, both for the Eastern and Western Christians."

and

"For the Fathers of the Fourth century, the vernal equinox was the primary determinant for calculating the date of the Paschal feast. The Seventh Apostolic Canon reads: “If any bishop, presbyter or deacon shall celebrate the holy day of Pascha before the vernal equinox, with the Jews, let him be deposed from the holy ranks.” Thus the time of the vernal equinox determines the full moon after which, on the first Sunday following, the Pascha should be celebrated."

However: "When the Western Pascha does not coincide with the Eastern, the difference can be either one week or as great as four or five weeks. This happens because the vernal equinox, according to the Julian calendar that serves as the basis for Paschalia calculations, occurs thirteen days behind the actual one, followed by the Gregorian calendar. Thus March 21 according to the New Style (March 8 Old Style) is the vernal equinox. Western Christians consider this the beginning of the Paschal moon. Thirteen days later, on April 3 New Style (March 21 Old Style) begins the time for calculating the Paschal moon for the Eastern Christians, for their Paschalia. Therefore, when the full moon occurs between March 21 and April 2 (New Style, of course) this is the Paschal moon only for the Western Church, since according to the Eastern Paschalia the vernal equinox has not yet occurred. In this case, the Orthodox Pascha is based on the following moon, a month later. This then would be the first full moon after March 21 according to the Old Style, but in fact it is really the second full moon following the astronomically actual vernal equinox (March 21 New Style)."

There is more information available at the link. It can make the little brain of this particular Pooh hurt as well, but there it is.

Herman the brain-hurting Pooh

#57 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,517 posts

Posted 30 January 2012 - 08:38 PM

OK folks this OC/NC debate is fun but to my simple mind there are a couple of things that don’t seem to wash for me, so if you can set me straight please do. There has been talk of the REAL Vernal Equinox am I missing something? There is a fake one running around? Or is someone just pulling my leg? There was a comment by Herman in posting #33, “And now the Vernal Equinox does NOT happen when the night and day are equal, but 13 days LATER.” Is that OC reckoning? It is my understanding that the sun crosses the plain of the Earth’s equator when God wills it, not on some arbitrary humanly decided date, March 21/22 NC/March 18/19 OC. I know that my poor little mind gets very confused trying to keep the two sets calendar dates together so maybe I am missing something here or someone is trying to pull the fluff over my eyes. Lets face it to a large extent what calendar date we call is case of “you call it Either, I call it eIther when in fact in sacred time it is Neither/neIther.”


March 21 or so is set for the vernal equinox. Meaning its a date marked on the calendar, so with the Julian calendar having drifted 13 days its now April 3. My objection to using the actual equinox is i have never found evidence that this was the intension of the Fathers. If it were they abandoned it soon after they adopted the canon itself! There concern was to have a functioning liturgical calendar, not having Theophany celebrated during Lent which would be the case if we used the actual vernal equinox.

Edited by Herman Blaydoe, 30 January 2012 - 09:39 PM.
fixed quote tags


#58 Herman Blaydoe

Herman Blaydoe

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,157 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 30 January 2012 - 10:17 PM

March 21 or so is set for the vernal equinox. Meaning its a date marked on the calendar, so with the Julian calendar having drifted 13 days its now April 3. My objection to using the actual equinox is i have never found evidence that this was the intension of the Fathers. If it were they abandoned it soon after they adopted the canon itself! There concern was to have a functioning liturgical calendar, not having Theophany celebrated during Lent which would be the case if we used the actual vernal equinox.


No, this cannot happen. The solar year is the solar year and the Vernal Equinox anchors the solar year by definition. Unfortunately the Julian calendar has slipped its anchor and is slowly drifting. Over the centuries it has broken the link between our liturgical worship and the Universe He set in motion. The earlier Church was not as concerned because centuries ago, it wasn't an issue and in the intervening centuries, we have had other issues to deal with while it slowly became a bigger and bigger divergence. Then it became a political football and we continue to punt the problem down the field. But for these reasons, simply everybody going back to a defective calendar seems like less and less a good idea. Somebody will need to deal with it, why not us? Do we indeed lack the courage and drive of the Church of the Councils? Are we really caught in the ecclesiology of a retreating army? I sincerely hope not.

Herman the hopeful Pooh

#59 Marcin Mankowski

Marcin Mankowski

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 97 posts

Posted 31 January 2012 - 07:26 AM

The solar year is the solar year and the Vernal Equinox anchors the solar year by definition. Unfortunately the Julian calendar has slipped its anchor and is slowly drifting. Over the centuries it has broken the link between our liturgical worship and the Universe He set in motion. ... Somebody will need to deal with it, why not us? Do we indeed lack the courage and drive of the Church of the Councils? Are we really caught in the ecclesiology of a retreating army?
Herman the hopeful Pooh


Not true. Julian Calendar is LESS accurate in relation to the solar year because the seasons are drifting as they are set by the wobbling axis of the Earth. And even if they did not drift the seasons of the southern hemisphere are already reversed.

Besides why this hurry after so many centuries? Why the creator of the reform Meletios Metaxakis was thinking that it is so urgent, that he could not wait for the largest Orthodox nation to be free from Communism? Instead he gave support to the renovationist Living Church. What were his real motives? Perhaps he did not want to miss his window of opportunity?

It is quite likely that we are not in danger of exchanging seasons with Argentina or Australia because the Second Coming will come much sooner as many signs are already here. And if not, a few centuries will not make a noticeable difference.

#60 Marcin Mankowski

Marcin Mankowski

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 97 posts

Posted 01 February 2012 - 06:57 AM

Not true. Julian Calendar is LESS accurate in relation to the solar year because the seasons are drifting as they are set by the wobbling axis of the Earth. And even if they did not drift the seasons of the southern hemisphere are already reversed.


Oops, I meant GREGORIAN Calendar




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users