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On relations with the Jewish people - Canon XI, Sixth Council


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#61 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 07:19 PM

No. We are not supposed to be anti but to embrace. Orthodoxy is what Christ is. He was not anti anything. Anti is only anti-Christ.


Embrace?

Am I supposed to embrace worshiping Amaterasu Omikami? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antishinto.
Am I supposed to embrace karma, dharma, and the cycle of reincarnation? No, I am opposed to this, thus I am antihindu and antibuddhist.
Am I supposed to embrace Mohammed as the final Messenger from God? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antimuslim.
Am I supposed to embrace that the Messiah has never been born? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antijudaic.
Am I supposed to embrace Sola Scriptura? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antiprotestant.
Am I supposed to embrace "once saved, always saved"? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antievangelical.

We are not to embrace heresy nor outright error. We are to welcome the people who make these mistakes, but we are to reject the mistakes.

#62 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 07:21 PM

I have always though that as Christians we ought not just not to be anti-Jewish or even anti-Judaic (whether in its ancient or less ancient forms)


So, then, we are never to speak in opposition to Jewish doctrines. Are we to accept that the Messiah has never been born or are we to reject this? Are we simply to not care?

#63 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 07:30 PM

How was this supposed to witness to Jews? By treating Jews as people whom Christian priests could not get close to that was supposed to bring them to Christ? By having no familiar intercourse with people who don't believe in the Lord was that how the Church at that time fulfilled the Great Commision? What brought me to faith in the Lord Jesus was the love of Christians, not being treated like an untouchable.


I see, therefore, I must, to be a Christian, accept the doctrines of Islam, since to oppose the doctrines of Islam (antislam) is to treat them like untouchables. I must accept all doctrines of Judaism, since to oppose any doctrines of Judaism (antijudaic) is to treat them like untouchables. I must accept all doctrines of Buddhism, since to reject doctrines of Buddhism (antibuddhist) is to treat them like untouchables. Indeed, according to this line of argument, one must accept the doctrines of Satanism, since to reject the doctrines of Satanism (antisatanic) is to treat them like untouchables.

Sorry, but I can't swallow such extremism. It is possible to reject a doctrine without attacking people.

Should we oppose Muslim doctrines regarding the Lord? Why not? After all, opposing Muslim doctrines is antimuslim.
Should we oppose Jewish doctrines regarding the Lord? Why not? After all, opposing Jewish doctrines is antijudaic.

Are we to "embrace" Jewish doctrines or reject them. It is not possible to reject a doctrine without being "anti-" that doctrine. If one is not "anti-" that doctrine, then one either accepts it or one is entirely apathetic about it. Are we, in "embracing" others, and never being "anti-", no matter what, to accept the doctrine that the Messiah has never been born, or are we to simply decide that that doctrine doesn't matter, we won't say anything in opposition to it, etc.?

Are we to become relativists and say "That belief is every bit as true and good as ours."? Are we to become apathists and say "We don't care what is believed or taught, it doesn't matter to the state of your soul what you believe." Are we to cease saying "Reincarnation is an incorrect belief." (antireincarnation)? Are we to cease saying "Those who say the Messiah has not been born are wrong." (antijudaic, antimuslim)? These are "anti-" statements. If we believe them, then we are "anti-" the beliefs those statements oppose. If we must, under no circumstance, be "anti-", then we must cease advocating Orthodoxy whenever it disagrees with any other doctrine.

#64 Jan Sunqvist

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 08:05 PM

Yes, embrace Jews, embrace Muslims, embrace Buddhists.
No, not be anti-their doctrine, because after all their doctrines contain some truth.
No, not accept their doctrines because we have Jesus Christ, the Truth in it's fullness.

#65 Nina

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 12:35 AM

Embrace?

Am I supposed to embrace worshiping Amaterasu Omikami? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antishinto.
Am I supposed to embrace karma, dharma, and the cycle of reincarnation? No, I am opposed to this, thus I am antihindu and antibuddhist.
Am I supposed to embrace Mohammed as the final Messenger from God? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antimuslim.
Am I supposed to embrace that the Messiah has never been born? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antijudaic.
Am I supposed to embrace Sola Scriptura? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antiprotestant.
Am I supposed to embrace "once saved, always saved"? No, I am opposed to this, thus, I am antievangelical.

We are not to embrace heresy nor outright error. We are to welcome the people who make these mistakes, but we are to reject the mistakes.


Yes! Embrace, Bryan! lol I would have made a joke about all those anti-s you have enlisted here in relation to your last name and its meaning in Greek, however it may be not understood so I will just skip it.

Bryan, do you understand that when you see a stranger you have no idea about his heart, what he believes, what he seeks, what is his repentance and thirst for the Truth. Now think about all the strangers you see in your life. Who are we to judge Another's servant? No one said to embrace heresy and the likes, but you and I have no idea what another person believes. We are called to love and be the salt of the world and have compassion for everyone. Did you ever hear the story of Saint Makarios and the pagan who beat the disciple of Saint Makarios? Do you think Saint Makarios embraced the gods of that pagan and the erroneous ideas when he embraced and showed love to that pagan?

#66 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 12:57 AM

Nina, I really do not believe that Bryan is trying to say that we should hate people, quite the opposite, I really think you are missing his point entirely.

#67 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:06 AM

Yes, embrace Jews, embrace Muslims, embrace Buddhists.
No, not be anti-their doctrine, because after all their doctrines contain some truth.
No, not accept their doctrines because we have Jesus Christ, the Truth in it's fullness.


For many, if you do not "accept" their beliefs as totally equivalent to yours, then you are "anti"-them. You are confusing the person and the idea, or you are accusing Bryan of that and that is a false accusation. You really are missing the point as well.

Truth is not an idea or a teaching or a philosophy or a book or a science or a system. Truth is a Person, Christ Himself. Anything else is something less and we need not apologize for saying so.

Herman

#68 Nina

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:09 AM

Nina, I really do not believe that Bryan is trying to say that we should hate people, quite the opposite, I really think you are missing his point entirely.


Do you know the story of St. Makarios, his disciple and the pagan? Bryan's post reminded me of the attitude of the disciple who was beaten up and left for dead by the pagan. I am not missing Bryan's point. I just do not want him get beaten up like the disciple of St. Makarios.

#69 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:15 AM

I'm sure that Bryan can speak for himself, but I don't think he is going around insulting non-Christians or even Baptists for that matter, or advocating that others do it, in fact that was his whole point in another thread about Moslems and Baptists and whether they worship the same God!

Wow talk about being in violent agreement... must be Lent or something ...

#70 Nina

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:22 AM

I'm sure that Bryan can speak for himself,


No, you are playing his advocate (for whatever reason) very well. We all are wrong and you 2 (or he only) is right.

#71 Owen Jones

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:17 PM

In Orthodoxy, truth is a Realm that is encompassed by the Holy Trinity.

#72 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 05:46 PM

Yes! Embrace, Bryan! lol I would have made a joke about all those anti-s you have enlisted here in relation to your last name and its meaning in Greek


My last name has no meaning at all in Greek. My last name is Irish, and it is an Anglicization of "Ua Maoldhomnaigh", which means "descendent of a servant of the Church". There is no "meaning in Greek" for my last name--unless you subscribe to the delusion of the father in My Big, Fat Greek Wedding, who thinks all languages, including Japanese, are descended from Greek.


Bryan, do you understand that when you see a stranger you have no idea about his heart, what he believes, what he seeks, what is his repentance and thirst for the Truth. Now think about all the strangers you see in your life. Who are we to judge Another's servant? No one said to embrace heresy and the likes


If you say I ought not be anti- the doctrines of heretics and pagans, then you say that I must embrace heresy and paganism. If I am not to be anti- the doctrine that "the goddess" rules everything, then I must either embrace that doctrine or say that the doctrine doesn't matter. If I am not to be anti- the doctrine that Mohammed is the final messenger of God and that Christ is not the Only-Begotten Son, then I must either embrace those doctrines or say that those doctrines do not differ in any important way from Orthodoxy.

I am able to love and have compassion without blindly agreeing with everything someone else believes and without pretending their errors are not errors.

You are giving me two alternatives:

I either must embrace all the doctrines of Islam, all the doctrines of Buddhism, even all the doctrines of Satanism (or at the very least, not oppose a single one of their doctrines), or I am hateful and sociopathic (lacking compassion).

To refuse to be anti- these doctrines means that one must either embrace them or at the very least insist that the Church is wrong in being anti- these doctrines, since it is wrong to reject any doctrine at all, no matter what it is. To reject a doctrine requires that one be anti- that doctrine. They are one and the same.

Do you reject the doctrine that the Messiah has not been yet born? Then you are antijudaic, for you reject a central doctrine of Judaism.
Do you reject the doctrine that God monistic and does not beget? Then you are antimuslim, for you reject a central doctrine of Islam.
Do you reject the cycle of samsara as the way that karma/dharma are played out? Then you are antibuddhist, for you reject a central doctrine of Buddhism.

What faith is as full of Truth as Orthodoxy? What doctrine is the equal of Orthodoxy's? If you refuse to be anti- a faith or a doctrine, then you have agreed that the faith or doctrine in question is as fully true as and equal to Orthodoxy.

but you and I have no idea what another person believes.


And then, by the same argument, you have no idea what I believe. If you have, by your own argument, no idea what I believe, how can you speak to what I, or anyone else, believes? How can you speak opposition to any person, at any time, for any thing? Have you ever opposed any other person? If you do not know what they believe, how can you have done that?

Did you ever hear the story of Saint Makarios and the pagan who beat the disciple of Saint Makarios? Do you think Saint Makarios embraced the gods of that pagan and the erroneous ideas when he embraced and showed love to that pagan?


No, but I also do not believe that I ever claimed, even once, that we were not to show love to a "pagan". Please point out specifically wherein I stated that people should be hated. Please point out where I stated that we are not set ourselves up as personal enemies of people and not, instead, oppose erroneous doctrines and beliefs.

#73 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 08:06 PM

Dear Brothers & Sisters in Christ,

Lately the Forum has seen too much sparring back & forth rather than being an opportunity for discussion of Patristic & ascetic issues. A reminder then that this Forum is a place for positive discussion first & foremost as governed by our guidelines.

Please keep this in mind, particularly as Great Lent is often a time of heightened sensitivity to perceived attacks and the desire to have the last word on some issue.

Thanks.

In Christ-
Fr Raphael

#74 Paul Nurmi

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Posted 13 April 2011 - 06:20 AM

Bryan misinterpreted my words. I was not saying I agree with everything others believe in. The kind of embrace I was thinking of was the way God relates to us. Think of John 3:16. God saw us in our sin, but instead of say, 'You're on your own now,' He sent His own Son to us in the flesh. In Jesus I see how much God values us, in spite of our sin. I am a sinful man whom God loves in spite of my sin. The more I experience His love the easier it becomes to stop sinning.

God reached out to me through people and my heart says that is how we should relate to believer and unbeliever alike. By treating people who don't believe as untouchable we do not reveal God's love we reveal the opposite of God, which is fear (1 John 4:18). Yet the fear of certain Christians toward certain people does not reveal hearts which are intimate with God. God is perfect love, and perfect love drives out all fear.

We should love others, and Jesus said that is how others would know we are His disciples in the gospel of John. To be fair, I was not thinking of being a relativist. What Bryan said is simply untrue because that is not what I meant. I hope we can both come to know God's perfect love more deeply so we can share His love with others. That is what people who don't know the Lord Jesus need and it is what we who do know Him need to know more fully.

In the risen Lord, Paul Nurmi

#75 Deborah Valentine

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 02:38 PM

I came from a secular Jewish background. I didn't kill anybody neither do I care about Jewish Law. I was converted to Christianity because of love. All of the early converts to Christianity were Jewish including all the apostles. The issue is political and racial. The way of Christ is to embrace all people and bring them to God.

#76 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 03:06 PM

I came from a secular Jewish background. I didn't kill anybody neither do I care about Jewish Law.

I do not think anyone would say you did.

All of the early converts to Christianity were Jewish including all the apostles.

I do not think it is right to think of the apostles ect.. as being converts to Christianity from Judaism. Christ is the same God worshipped by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob he came to fulfil the law and the prophets. Really Christianity is the fulfilment of the Old Testament Church of the Jews to the New Testament Catholic Church. So the apostles ect.. did not convert to or from anything they simply believed God like there forefathers but unlike the Pharisees ect..

The issue is political and racial.

I think the point is that in John Chrysostom the issue is with the Jewish religion and this is separate from the political and racial issue.

#77 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 03:29 PM

Bryan misinterpreted my words. I was not saying I agree with everything others believe in. The kind of embrace I was thinking of was the way God relates to us.


I wrote specifically and exclusively of doctrines. You concluded that this must mean that I am considering anyone who holds those doctrines to be "untouchable". Explain how one must follow from the other.

Think of John 3:16. God saw us in our sin, but instead of say, 'You're on your own now,' He sent His own Son to us in the flesh. In Jesus


And did He also say "Oh, go ahead believing whatever you want, too. If you want to believe in multiple gods, that's just hunky-dory."? That's what I'm told on this board that I have to do. Otherwise, I'm unChristian, refusing to witness, etc.

By treating people who don't believe as untouchable


Let's run this through:

I am anti-polytheistic, i.e., I oppose the doctrine of polytheism, I refuse to accept it as true.
This supposedly means that I treat all polytheists as untouchables.
Thus, to be a proper Christian witness, I must refuse to reject the doctrine of polytheism--I must accept it as true, since to be anti-polytheism is to treat polytheists as untouchables.
Therefore, to witness the truths taught by the Church, I must deny the truths taught by the Church.

Can someone please point out to me how refusing to accept a doctrine contrary to the teachings of the Church is the same as treating someone as "untouchable" or refusing to embrace the person? How am I required to embrace Muslim doctrines in order to embrace Muslim people? If I oppose the Jewish doctrine that the Messiah has not been born, then I am anti-judaic--I oppose an important Jewish doctrine. If I oppose TULIP, then I am anti-Calvinist--I oppose the core doctrines of Calvinism. Yet I am told here that I am not to oppose any doctrines that contradict the Church, since to be anti-anything is wrong. How, then, can I cling to the Truth of Christ if I am required to not oppose the denial of His Truth? I really would like an answer.

#78 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 04:24 PM

I think there is a lot of confusion on this forum about what each over is saying. Now being anti-whatever can mean two things that you are against there doctrines or you are against them, with the latter being the more common meaning. The former would most likely mean you are fine with the people but disagree with them a bit like Saint Agustines "Love the sinner, hate the sin" the same could I think be said so say love the Mormon hate Mormonism. Now to me I find my self agreeing (for once ;) ) with Bryan Maloney but I also agree with the others who say to embrace all people, embrace the Mohammedite ect.. be anti Mohammedanism.

#79 Sherman Cheung

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 03:34 PM

Being a fellow convert I don't think you have any place to demand the Church to do anything. Thats what i don't like about my fellow converts, they convert and demand to Change the Church. I converted, i didn't want to change anything, so why do you want to? Are you a Jew who infiltrated the Church? Just like the Jews Infiltrating the catholic Church to change it? God gave us such a pristine faith with its canons and yet you want to Change things? not good. if i were you, I would sit on my hands, zip up my mouth. not say anything! And be a Good orthodox Christian, and delve into the canons, the Canons were put into place for a good reason...that canon included.




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