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Publications from schismatic or heretical sources


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#21 John Bennett

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 06:12 PM

I think that the question is whether one is furthering the cause of schismatics by one's action.


That would be my concern.

Also, ROCOR would have been considered schismatic at the time (not an issue now, but was) so the same issue would have applied.

#22 Ryan

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 06:17 PM

As is mentioned in post 19 Holy Trinity Monastery is the only source for several Orthodox items. I would suspect that probably most, if not all Orthodox churches in the English speaking world, use their edition of the Psalms.


Fortunately Jordanville will be publishing a new psalter next year, using David James' revision of the Coverdale psalter, and also including additional material normally found in Slavic psalters.

#23 Jason Hunt

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 06:29 PM

The icons in St. Catherine's were prepared and installed while Fr. Gregory was in communion with ROCOR. His works are in several other Orthodox churches in the Denver area. I am not aware of any of his works being installed in the area since he left ROCOR.

As is mentioned in post 19 Holy Trinity Monastery is the only source for several Orthodox items. I would suspect that probably most, if not all Orthodox churches in the English speaking world, use their edition of the Psalms.


Just to clarify, I think you meant "Holy Transfiguration Monastery" rather than "Holy Trinity Monastery." "Holy Trinity" is ROCOR's monastery, often referred to just as "Jordanville". Holy Transfiguration's Psalter is probably the most widely used in the English world.

#24 Christophoros

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 09:41 PM

Schism in the age of modernism and ecumenism is very relative. Don't believe for a moment that simply because a particular group is viewed as "schismatic" means they produce inferior publications.

And more importantly, don't believe for a second that everything produced by the "canonical" Churches is fully Orthodox.

#25 David R.

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Posted 14 October 2010 - 11:20 PM

Schism in the age of modernism and ecumenism is very relative. Don't believe for a moment that simply because a particular group is viewed as "schismatic" means they produce inferior publications.

And more importantly, don't believe for a second that everything produced by the "canonical" Churches is fully Orthodox.



So very true.

#26 Kyrill Bolton

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 01:20 AM

Just to clarify, I think you meant "Holy Transfiguration Monastery" rather than "Holy Trinity Monastery." "Holy Trinity" is ROCOR's monastery, often referred to just as "Jordanville". Holy Transfiguration's Psalter is probably the most widely used in the English world.


Thank you very much for pointing out and correcting my mistake. I should have been more careful, you are correct in saying I meant the "Holy Transfiguration Monastery." May all my ROCOR friends (and others) forgive me.

#27 Jason Hunt

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 12:00 PM

Thank you very much for pointing out and correcting my mistake


Its an easy mistake to make! Both monasteries can be abbreviated "HTM", afterall, which is why Holy Trinity is usually referred to as Jordanville.

Bishop Jerome of ROCOR has stated that one of the reasons why ROCOR would like to publish their own Psalter is exactly to avoid this awkward situation where ROCOR officially has to ask permission from a group that went into schism from itself under the cloud of very serious moral accusations, in order to use their Psalter which currently is the best available.

- [Interviewer:] Vladyka, the Synod of Bishops recently met. On your initiative, a new commission was created by the Synod. Could you tell us some about this commission?

- [Bishop Jerome:] We have translations before that were, in my opinion, not entirely correct. This will be a controversial question, but in this regard we have taken several steps to improve order. The official name is the Translation Committee. The issue is that earlier all of our translations were done at Holy Transfiguration Monastery, which is officially part of a schismatic group. These translations were often far from being free of errors. This involves us because we must as their permission to use their translations. Right now we are completing a new English translation of the Psalter, which contains all of the hymns, prayers, and texts by the Holy Fathers, which are included in the Slavonic edition of the Psalter. I think that this is a step in the right direction. I hope that in the future we will have an opportunity to make editions with parallel Slavonic and English texts, which would not only be easier to use in church, but would also help those trying to learn Church Slavonic.

http://www.eadiocese...03/bjint.en.htm



Of course, if one is really troubled in conscience about supporting schismatic groups, they certainly do not have to purchase anything from them. Before condemning others for purchasing from them, however, it is important to realize how much they are supported by the "canonical" jurisdictions at fairly official levels. It was already mentioned how Gregory of Colorado is hired to paint churches, particularly by the Antiochians, who he left over 40 yrs ago, and that his icons are included in the widely used Pan-Orthodox production The Orthodox Study Bible. Books from HTM and Gregory of Colorado are sold in all the seminary bookstores and probably all of the monastery bookstores in all jurisdictions. Holy Cross Greek Orthodox Seminary purchases cassocks for seminarians from the HOCNA convent down the road from HTM. The chapel at Holy Cross seminary also uses HTM's service books for the English portions of its services. Since basically all of the “canonical jurisdictions” buy their goods, if someone saw this as a problem they would have to take the issue to the highest levels – perhaps even to the Episcopal Assemblies (though I think they have some more pressing matters to discuss first). It is true that if the "canonical Orthodox" jurisdictions did not purchase any of their goods, they would very likely dry up since they have such a small support base of their own. This is particularly the case with Gregory of Colorado who practically has nobody with him, and yet you can imagine how much he makes when hired to paint an entire cathedral church.

In Christ,

Jason

Edited by Herman Blaydoe, 15 October 2010 - 01:13 PM.
removed extraneous formatting


#28 Guillermo M.L.

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Posted 15 October 2010 - 09:44 PM

Just being curious... how many groups have splintered from the ROCOR since the latter rejoined the ROC?

Here in my city there is one church from the ROCA (Russian Orthodox Church Abroad), which was from the ROCOR until 2007. It is the historical church commissioned by the tsar in the nineteenth century. The Moscow Patriarchate, because of this, had to build a new church for themselves in the post-Soviet era.

#29 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 02:13 PM

Guillermo M.L. wrote:

Just being curious... how many groups have splintered from the ROCOR since the latter rejoined the ROC?


I think there are two. One is those who left under the name of Met. Vitaly. I don't think this group has much existence anymore. A second group is with Bp Agafangel which does have an administration and is in communion with some of the Old Calendrists.

Otherwise various priests and people went to other OC groups.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#30 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 16 October 2010 - 02:38 PM

There was the ROCiE (Russian Orthodox Church in Exile) that, as Fr. Raphael points out, seems to have pretty much died out. There is also the Russian Orthodox Autocephalos Church (ROAC) that continues to exist but does not appear to have gained much traction. It might be worth pointing out that ROCA and ROCOR are two different acronyms that are interchangeable, they are both used for the same Church and are not two different groups.

Herman the Pooh who suddenly has an unexplainable desire for a nice steamy bowl of alphabet soup. Must be the Autumn weather...
a member of the American Truly Authentic Genuine Holy Orthodox Church in Reality (ATAGHOCiR). Accept no substitutes! (OK, just a member of ACROD, but it has a lot of letters too!)

#31 Guillermo M.L.

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Posted 17 October 2010 - 01:20 AM

There was the ROCiE (Russian Orthodox Church in Exile) that, as Fr. Raphael points out, seems to have pretty much died out.


I think that's the group that manages the church in my city. I was saying ROCA, but I meant to say ROCiE. They refuse to accept the renewed communion of the ROCOR with the ROC... they say it was an arrangement done too prematurely, hastily and in a disordinate way. But... they also have a tremendous attachment to the Julian Calendar, saying that no saint commemoration is valid under the new calendar, so they could be from Bp Agafangel's group.

Herman the Pooh who suddenly has an unexplainable desire for a nice steamy bowl of alphabet soup. Must be the Autumn weather...
a member of the American Truly Authentic Genuine Holy Orthodox Church in Reality (ATAGHOCiR). Accept no substitutes! (OK, just a member of ACROD, but it has a lot of letters too!)


LOL =D

#32 Michael Stickles

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 08:51 PM

a member of the American Truly Authentic Genuine Holy Orthodox Church in Reality (ATAGHOCiR). Accept no substitutes! (OK, just a member of ACROD, but it has a lot of letters too!)


You could try the group one of our readers used to belong to - OTOPotGAWiEFCFRiCwBSiEA (One True Old Posters of the Genuine Ancient Way in Exile From Christian Forums Resistance in Communion with Baklavas Synod in Exile Abroad). Too bad acronyms don't count in Scrabble - I'd love that on a triple word score (assuming it even fits on the board).

#33 Michael Stickles

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 09:06 PM

Back on topic, though, a quick list might be in order. The publishers/providers/stores mentioned so far as belonging to schismatic/heretical/etc. groups, plus a couple others I know of:

  • Dormition Skete and Holy Apostles Convent (independent, formerly ROAC)
  • Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Holy Nativity Convent and Saint Nectarios Press (HOCNA)
  • St. John of Kronstadt Press (ROCA)
Does anyone know of any others?

#34 Kosta

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 11:53 PM

The Synod in Resistance also publishes from their Etna california location. Also the Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies ibmgs.org is run by a member of SiR; Constantine Cavarnos. He is a highly respected scholar though I think these sum up all the schismatic groups that publish material that are actually pretty good.

#35 Ryan

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 01:52 AM

The Synod in Resistance also publishes from their Etna california location. Also the Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies ibmgs.org is run by a member of SiR; Constantine Cavarnos.


Is Dr. Cavarnos really part of SiR? I haven't been able to find much biographical information about him. He has lectured at GOARCH churches. He collaborates with SiR members often, but he also collaborates with members of "world Orthodoxy." For example, Fr. Asterios Gerostergios, who has written or translated a number of works published by IBMGS, is a GOARCH priest. Bishop Augoustinos Kantiotes belonged to the New Calendar Church of Greece, and many of his homilies are published by Dr. Cavarnos. IBMGS is certainly more than an outlet for SiR publications.

#36 Jason Hunt

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 02:31 AM

Is Dr. Cavarnos really part of SiR?


I am almost certain he is not part of SiR but rather is a member of the Greek Archdiocese. He is indicated as one of the "Faculty and Advisors" for the SiR's Center for Traditionalist Orthodox Studies (CTOS), but last I heard he is not a member of their group. If someone really wanted to find out for sure, they could just give him a call. His contact information is posted on the website for his "Institute for Byzantine and Modern Greek Studies".

In Christ,

Jason

#37 Archimandrite Irenei

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 02:57 AM

'World Orthodoxy' is a terrible phrase. It shouldn't be used, even in inverted commas!

#38 Christophoros

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 01:09 PM

This is far from official, but somewhere on John Sanidopoulos' blog it was reported that Dr. Cavarnos just this year was received by the Synod in Resistance; don't know if it's true. He is one of those rare individuals who seems to transcend the Old Calendarist / New Calendarist divide and is universally respected.

As far as not purchasing publications from heretical and schismatic sources, does that mean getting rid of the Ante-Nicene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers Series, the many publications on the early Fathers by the Cistercians (goodbye Sayings and Lives of the Desert Fathers!), the Ancient Christian Commentary on Holy Scripture, and so many others produced by Roman Catholic, Anglican, and patristic-minded Protestants? Or are we saying more recent heretics and schismatics are more worthy of derision than those which were far larger and more significant but more ancient?

#39 Guillermo M.L.

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:47 AM

IMHO, I think that losing sleep about the possibility of giving money to schismatics/heretics/heterodox, is giving too much value in our lives to money and its potential power. It is an attitude that may be unconciously derived from a worldly over-appreciation of riches.

If the Holy Spirit is not with a certain group, even not all the money in the world will save them, nor make them triumph.

#40 Antonios

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 04:57 AM

It is, I think, a good rule to practice that when you do purchase a book, purchase it from a site/store which offers mostly Christian writings (preferentially Orthodox of course), instead of other more generic booksellers (ex: Amazon), even if it is a couple of dollars more. Our money is a token of support for these Christian booksellers, and particularly for the writings that are purchased. This can lead to more such spiritual books being translated and published.




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