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Did Jesus Christ make Adam and Eve out of the dust, and of the rib?


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#1 IoanC

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 06:08 PM

I've heard it said that Jesus Christ was The One who actually took 'dust from the ground' and made Adam, and also made Eve from Adam's rib. I think people are often shocked to hear this since they instinctively feel that God The Father would be the Person who physically took dust from the ground.
God The Father is the maker of Heaven and Earth according to the Creed. However, in the Creed it also says through Jesus all things were made and That the Holy Spirit is the Giver of life. Personally, I believe Jesus would be the one who took dust from the ground, thus fulfilling "let Us make man in Our image", the Creed, and our theology which says that the three Persons of the Trinity always act together, though I can't back up my belief with anything other than my own opinions.
Does anybody know more about this or has patristic knowledge/references?

I will quote the verses I am referring to below:

Genesis 2

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. 22 Then the rib which the LORD God had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man.

#2 Benjamin Amis

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 07:37 PM

I would say that the creation of man was a primarily Trinitarian act. The First Book of Moses reads,

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Gen. 1:26).

It seems that God reasoned within Himself, within the Trinitarian hypostasis, in order to create man in the image of the Triune God.

However, the iconography of the Church does seem to teach that Christ is the one who breathed into Adam the breath of life, as indicated by this icon:

Attached File  adam_reation_iconic.jpg   106.01K   104 downloads

Of course, I look forward to hearing what the Fathers have to say regarding this issue. :)

#3 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 21 October 2010 - 11:18 PM

"... And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of Light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made; ..." (from the Nicene Creed)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." (John 1:1-3)

#4 Ben Johnson

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 04:31 AM

All 3 were involved wtih the creation. I'm not sure one can separate out the 3 Persons and say, "It was this one."

#5 IoanC

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 04:50 AM

Yes, definitely All Three Persons were involved; They always are, but each Person of The Trinity has a specific role. All actions come from The Father, are done by The Son, and perfected by The Holy Spirit. Or we can use an analogy such as The Father is The Mind, The Son is The Word, and The Holy Spirit is the breath (that accompanies the Word).
In this topic, I am asking what each Person did with respect to the specific creation of man -- the physical taking of the dust from the ground, and using the rib to make Adam and Eve. I guess a complementary question would be, What Person of The Trinity was walking in the garden after Adam and Eve sinned?

#6 Ben Johnson

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 06:20 AM

Yes, definitely All Three Persons were involved; They always are, but each Person of The Trinity has a specific role. All actions come from The Father, are done by The Son, and perfected by The Holy Spirit. Or we can use an analogy such as The Father is The Mind, The Son is The Word, and The Holy Spirit is the breath (that accompanies the Word).
In this topic, I am asking what each Person did with respect to the specific creation of man -- the physical taking of the dust from the ground, and using the rib to make Adam and Eve. I guess a complementary question would be, What Person of The Trinity was walking in the garden after Adam and Eve sinned?

I don't know, but it would be interesting if it was the new Adam walking in the garden looking for the old Adam.

#7 Kusanagi

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 10:32 AM

When I was at a talk given by a Greek priest, he said the correct translation is not a rib but the spine was taken to form Eve.

in icons i have seen it is portrayed that Jesus the Son of God was walking through the garden when Adam and Eve were hiding.

#8 Olga

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 11:43 AM

When I was at a talk given by a Greek priest, he said the correct translation is not a rib but the spine was taken to form Eve.


Here is the Greek text:

22 καὶ ᾠκοδόμησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὴν πλευράν, ἣν ἔλαβεν ἀπὸ τοῦ ᾿Αδάμ, εἰς γυναῖκα καὶ ἤγαγεν αὐτὴν πρὸς τὸν ᾿Αδάμ.

The words tin pleuran can only be translated into the side or the rib. If a spine (vertebra) was taken from Adam to form Eve, the words would be τὸν σπόνδυλον (ton spondylon).

#9 Benjamin Amis

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 12:49 PM

I don't know, but it would be interesting if it was the new Adam walking in the garden looking for the old Adam.


Yes! What a beautiful picture that is!

in icons i have seen it is portrayed that Jesus the Son of God was walking through the garden when Adam and Eve were hiding.


Would you happen to have access to a digital form of this type of icon? I would love to see it! :D

Here is the Greek text:

22 καὶ ᾠκοδόμησεν ὁ Θεὸς τὴν πλευράν, ἣν ἔλαβεν ἀπὸ τοῦ ᾿Αδάμ, εἰς γυναῖκα καὶ ἤγαγεν αὐτὴν πρὸς τὸν ᾿Αδάμ.

The words tin pleuran can only be translated into the side or the rib. If a spine (vertebra) was taken from Adam to form Eve, the words would be τὸν σπόνδυλον (ton spondylon).


I have to concur (not that I'm in any position to ever disagree with Olga about Greek!). I once heard an interesting note about this, due to the poetic nature of the Hebrew language, that the word in Hebrew (צֵלָע - tsela') could be understood as being similar to "biopsy." This word in Hebrew is also used to refer to the beam of a ship as well as the cells (or "side chambers") of a temple. IIRC, It was used later in Genesis to refer to the "sides" of Noah's ark. It's a very interesting, albiet modern, understanding.

The Greek word (πλευρά - pleura) as Olga already pointed out, is equally flexible. It can refer to the side of an object, whether animate or inanimate.

#10 IoanC

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 06:27 PM

I don't know, but it would be interesting if it was the new Adam walking in the garden looking for the old Adam.


It would be interesting, but my understanding is that The New Adam is tied to the human nature of Christ; His human nature did not exist at the time of the Garden of Eden.

#11 IoanC

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 06:36 PM

in icons i have seen it is portrayed that Jesus the Son of God was walking through the garden when Adam and Eve were hiding.


Well, it would be interesting to find out the story/reasoning of that type of icon. I don't mean to suggest that there's something wrong with the icon, but back in Eden, The Son of God had not yet become incarnate. We also know that icons can only depict The Son of God based on His human nature, not His divine nature;
therefore, seeing an icon of Jesus Christ (as Son of Man) in Eden would be a bit historically inaccurate. But again, one would first have to know the meaning behind the icon, (unless it's just an innocent depiction).

#12 Benjamin Amis

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Posted 22 October 2010 - 08:10 PM

Well, it would be interesting to find out the story/reasoning of that type of icon. I don't mean to suggest that there's something wrong with the icon, but back in Eden, The Son of God had not yet become incarnate. We also know that icons can only depict The Son of God based on His human nature, not His divine nature;
therefore, seeing an icon of Jesus Christ (as Son of Man) in Eden would be a bit historically inaccurate. But again, one would first have to know the meaning behind the icon, (unless it's just an innocent depiction).


I'm intrigued: What would you say about the icon I posted above?

#13 IoanC

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 04:59 AM

I'm intrigued: What would you say about the icon I posted above?


I don't know what I'd say. :) All I can say, is that the Son of God was not yet incarnate at that time. Though, the icon depicts Adam in the presence of Jesus Christ (as human, too). Again, no icon can depict the divine nature of God, all we see is based on the incarnation. But, please, forgive me, maybe I am reading too much into this. On the other hand, the icon you posted is definitely a clue in the direction that The Son of God might have indeed been the one 'walking in the garden'. Makes you wonder what He really looked like at the time, if it was Him. :)

#14 IoanC

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 05:22 AM

Yes! What a beautiful picture that is!



Would you happen to have access to a digital form of this type of icon? I would love to see it! :D



I have to concur (not that I'm in any position to ever disagree with Olga about Greek!). I once heard an interesting note about this, due to the poetic nature of the Hebrew language, that the word in Hebrew (צֵלָע - tsela') could be understood as being similar to "biopsy." This word in Hebrew is also used to refer to the beam of a ship as well as the cells (or "side chambers") of a temple. IIRC, It was used later in Genesis to refer to the "sides" of Noah's ark. It's a very interesting, albiet modern, understanding.

The Greek word (πλευρά - pleura) as Olga already pointed out, is equally flexible. It can refer to the side of an object, whether animate or inanimate.


I don't know any Greek. I'd like to mention that the Romanian translation says it is a rib, too, without any room for other interpretation; maybe irrelevant since we're talking about Greek text. But, all I can say is that whatever 'the side' was, what God did was definitely an action that pertained specifically to the physical realm, much as the work of a craftsman. He did not create man the same way He created the Angels -- just by thinking them into being. I am certain about this and I've heard elders talk on the subject. If we take a basic look at the text, we see that God brought deep sleep to Adam, took one of his sides/ribs, then closed the flesh back up. So, obviously, without much theology we can pretty much understand that God brought sleep to Adam so that he wouldn't feel any (physical) pain as He'd take one his sides/ribs. I don't mean to disagree with what you said, just to clarify/add a few things.

#15 Ben Johnson

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 05:29 AM

In Hebrew the word can mean rib or side. I do not think one can go as far as a spine, but I was not there.

#16 Paul Cowan

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 05:40 AM

Makes you wonder what He really looked like at the time, if it was Him. :)


I have a picture of my dad when he was about 20. A couple years before I was born. Funny, he looks the same then as he did after I was born.

#17 IoanC

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 11:00 AM

I have a picture of my dad when he was about 20. A couple years before I was born. Funny, he looks the same then as he did after I was born.


Sorry, not sure what you mean. What I meant to say is that The Person who walked in the Garden did not look like what we see in icons because icons are based on Christ's human nature. So, Adam and Eve must have seen God in a different way than we are used to thinking, according to God's divine nature only.

#18 Paul Cowan

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 06:22 PM

The "Spirit of the Lord" all through the OT is in reference to Jesus.

Genesis3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.


If we are saying the "sound of the Lord" was also Jesus which is perfectly in line with other scripture references to the "work" done by God was also Jesus, then why is it necessary for Him to look different? If we know what He looked like when He became incarnate, why can we not depict Him the same before He became in carnate? It is not for His sake we are doing so, it is for our limited brains.

Hence the picture of my dad. He looked like himself before and after I knew him. Why MUST have Adam and Eve have seen Him differently? Yes, Jesus hid His identity after His resurrection. But it was for a purpose. There was no reason for Him to hide His personage from them in the beginning. Although the Bible does say "voice" of the Lord and does not suggest a physical manifestation of His personage was there. Still, our limited brains can best picture His personage through iconography with the same "face".

Paul

#19 Guillermo M.L.

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 12:23 AM

Aren't you guys taking the Genesis tale too literally?

#20 IoanC

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 05:06 AM

If we know what He looked like when He became incarnate, why can we not depict Him the same before He became in carnate? It is not for His sake we are doing so, it is for our limited brains.
Paul


Like I said before, I am not 'against the icon'. I just expressed some personal ideas. The icon may be just an innocent (simple) depiction or very elaborate, but I think it would be best to find out the reasoning behind it before we label it 'good or bad'.

Although the Bible does say "voice" of the Lord and does not suggest a physical manifestation of His personage was there.

The Bible says that Adam and Eve heard the sound of God's walking, and hid themselves. Therefore, they were trying to avoid the visual encounter with God (in what form in don't know), but God was asking where Adam was (hence the 'voice only'). Adam and Eve used to have direct communion with God before the fall (ie they were seeing Him and the Angels, hearing Him, talking to Him), it wasn't just some impersonal experience such as a breeze blowing through the trees and hinting that was God.




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