Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 1 votes

The Orthodox Church and gay marriage


  • Please log in to reply
394 replies to this topic

#381 Michael Bauman

Michael Bauman

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 52 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:26 PM

In any case, I'm not sure what the objection is to the Church "attempting to affect secular things outside of it based on what it believes". I see no internally consistent basis for objecting to that, whether from the point of view of the Church or of the state.



Michael, it is hatred, contempt and fear the prompts such an effort to silence the voice of the Church: The Will to Power.

#382 Dimmitri

Dimmitri

    Junior Poster

  • Members
  • 3 posts

Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:37 PM

This entire post of yours Dimmitri is all about deciding not to allow those who think and decide differently to have the same rights as the rest of the population. Nothing you posted is a new argument here. This is still about you taking your personal beliefs and legislating them on others who think differently. Its about telling a group of law-abiding, tax-paying citizens that they don't deserve to have access to secular marriage because of your own religious beliefs. You may say you don't feel "hostile" towards them but your actions, preventing gay people and gay families from being able to have a secular marriage license, seem to suggest otherwise. This is nothing more or less than rationalized discrimination of the worst kind.

You're attempt to change the focus of the argument from a religious to non-religious one is not new either, but it does seem a little disingenuous for a very religious person to suddenly suggest something like this on a religious web site. At first glance it would seem that you are worried you are losing the debate.


Dear Jason,

I do not feel like arguing with you. For that is not the reason why I have joined this forum nor contributed to this thread. Instead, I feel like discussing the issue with you, as proper dialogue is conducted in a structured and sincere manner. As such, I won't be responding to the emotionally charged rhetoric you have employed in response to the main focus of my initial post in this thread. I find your approach to be entirely fruitless and completely dissatisfying. Nevertheless, if you would like to discuss this issue with me personally I am more than happy for you to address me privately on this forum or by email. Forgive me if I have offended you, however.

That being said, I am still interested in the response of this forum to the three questions I have asked (that is, if anyone, chooses to answer the questions I have brought forth). Though, if much of what I have asked has already been answered in the previous pages of this thread then I apologize for asking already answered questions in an attempt to further dialogue. My laziness can sometimes get the better of me.

Regards,

Dimmitri

#383 George Y

George Y

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 23 posts

Posted 09 July 2012 - 04:23 AM

The Bible, and the church (and if I'm not mistaken, God) views homosexuality as a sin, so why would the church promote sin by performing gay marriage ceremonies?

It's contra to everything the church stands for in my opinion. They would become accomplices in sin.

I think those who want the church to allow gay marriage ceremonies need to lift the wool from their eyes and see the bigger picture of why all this is happening.

Edited by George Y, 09 July 2012 - 04:45 AM.


#384 Michael Stickles

Michael Stickles

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 1,438 posts

Posted 10 July 2012 - 11:24 PM

Since Dimmitri brought them up again, I thought I'd re-quote his three questions since they originally appeared a couple of pages back:

1. Which Fathers of the Church speak of homosexuality?

2. Should we utilize a method of argumentation that is secular by nature to help relate our arguments to those who don't believe in God and the Church's teaching on marriage?

3. Why do you believe same-sex marriage ought not to be legalized?


Regarding question #1, the site Catholic Answers has a page on Early Teachings on Homosexuality which lists quotes from a number of Fathers who spoke on this issue (all are pre-Schism).

As for #2, I see two dangers in such a method. First is that we may, by implication, lend credence to the concept that there is a "secular" sphere where ideas of the "sacred" do not and should not have influence; second is that we would be arguing from a necessarily weaker and less solid position ("necessarily" because such arguments would be divorced at least partially from the only true ground of reality). That's not to say that such a method might not be useful in certain circumstances if carefully handled, only that the dangers must be kept in mind. Above all, one would have to avoid any appearance of using the "secular" arguments to justify the arguments from Church teaching, which would get the precedence entirely backwards.

Finally, my simple (and woefully incomplete) answer for #3 is that "legalization" actually involves official recognition and approval of homosexual unions by the state, a stance which places the state even further outside of God's will. It is, if you will, a further "decaying" of the nation, or "corruption" in the Patristic sense, and one of our roles in the world Scripturally is that of "salt" (a preservative, among other things). Opposition thus seems to me to be necessary; otherwise the "salt" will have "lost its saltiness". How "proactive" such opposition should be is another matter, and one which I'm not prepared to address.

#385 Konstandina

Konstandina

    Junior Poster

  • Members
  • 1 posts

Posted 27 June 2015 - 12:52 AM

Reaction to Supreme Court ruling on same-sex marriage:

 

I'm opposed to same-sex marriage, because I believe the sacrament of marriage is based on Christ's relationship to His church.  Christ is referred to in scripture and Orthodox writing as the "Bridegroom," and His Holy Orthodox Church as the "Bride of Christ."  It follows then that there is one Bridegroom, which is Christ, and one Bride, which is the Holy Orthodox Church.  

 

 



#386 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,517 posts

Posted 28 June 2015 - 06:18 AM

I reject gay marriage because secular marriage is there only to protect the mother and children financially. In times past when women were stay at home moms without a skill set for secular work , civil marriages was the legal contract giving alimony and child support in cases of seperation and extended the husbands social security benefits to the woman if the husband died. The homosexual lobby is financial greed stealing from grandma to line their own pockets.

Edited by Kosta, 28 June 2015 - 06:19 AM.


#387 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 28 June 2015 - 07:13 PM

In the eyes of the Orthodox Church, marriage is a sacrament conducted in an Orthodox church. A civil marriage is no marriage at all; after all, an Orthodox person who enters into a civil marriage only and has no intention of having a Church marriage is considered to be not in good order with the Church but is living in sin, and cannot have Holy Communion. Accordingly, we could take the view that civil marriages of homosexuals are not really marriages at all so far as we are concerned.



#388 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,517 posts

Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:07 AM

But it does concern us as they steal from us taxpayers to give financial government incentives to a farce union based on greed. It has created clergy members that openly promote homosexuality rendering christianity ineffective in which the church is no longer creating saints but highly effective in sending people to hellfire.
Secondly the GOARCH rarely does anything to Orthodox members who marry in civil ceremonies (even when one spouse is non christian). For the church that ive spent my whole life in everything is an act of eikonomia for them.

This is what happens when there is no bishop courageous enough like Metropolitan Philaret to lay down the truth. This is what happens when ecumenists tell us the anglican bishopess and every other western sect preoccupied with sexuality are pious christian with baptisms. Sorry but give me a muslim anyday over these christians, it would be more edifying.

#389 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:51 AM

Perhaps things are different in the USA but I don't understand the point about greed; here, at any rate, the tax advantages of marriage (or civil partnership) are unlikely to affect many people, and are most likely to do so only on the death of one of the parties.

 

I have not heard that Orthodox clergy 'openly promote homosexuality': in any case, I don't see how anyone can promote the condition of homosexuality as opposed to condoning homosexual activity.

 

I do now tend to agree that a baptism performed these days by any western Christian denomination, including the Anglican Church, is of questionable validity, and perhaps it is time for the Orthodox Church to ask itself if such baptism ought no longer to be accepted by the Church since the AC and other denominations have propelled themselves so very far from traditional faith.

 

I assume the last comment ought not to be taken very seriously.



#390 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,517 posts

Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:31 PM

In another forum we are discussing an OCA deacon who is prmoting same sex marriage and literally celebrating, there is also archbishop Lazar ( he may have been censured not sure), so they are out there. There was even a priest awhile back wrote an article finding no problem with it. Either the church has as its mission to save people or its mission is to send people to hellfire. If its the latter then there is no point, the bishops should tell us plainly so we can leave. Telling us the lutheran homosexual loving priestess has valid baptismal forms are untrue. Tell us how the gates of hades has prevailed against them instead, you know the truth.

im serious I would much rather discuss morality with a muslim than some christian whose idea of morality and personal holiness is to "save the earth" .

#391 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 29 June 2015 - 07:43 PM

Obviously, clergy who hold the opinions mentioned ought to be censured by their bishop. If a bishop holds such views, the laity should ask the ruling hierarch to intervene.

 

There are good Muslims just as there are bad Christians - God will judge.



#392 Ken McRae

Ken McRae

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 565 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 24 May 2017 - 03:09 AM

Sorry but give me a muslim anyday over these christians, it would be more edifying.


There are good Muslims ...


Islam: An Orthodox Christian Perspective - Faith Encouraged Live | Ancient Faith Ministries
http://www.ancientfa...ian_perspective

1.)  “There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist…. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk, devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.”

-- St. John Damascene (d. 749). Quoted from his book 'On Heresies', under the section 'On the Heresy of the Ishmaelites' (in The Fathers of the Church, Vol. 37, CUA Press. 1958. Pages 153-160.)

2.)  “Any cult which denies the divinity of Christ, does not profess the existence of the Holy Trinity, refutes baptism, defames Christians, and derogates the priesthood, we consider to be damned.”

-- Sts. Aurelius, Felix, George, Liliosa, and Natalia (d. 852), martyrs of Cordoba, Spain. Reported in the Memoriale Sanctorum in response to Spanish Umayyad Caliph ‘Abd Ar-Rahman II’s ministers that they convert to Islam on pain of death.

3.)  “We profess Christ to be truly God and your prophet to be a precursor of the Antichrist and other profane doctrine.”

-- Sts. Habenitus, Jeremiah, Peter, Sabinian, Walabonsus, and Wistremundus (d. 851), martyrs of Cordoba, Spain. Reported in the Memoriale Sanctorum in response to Spanish Umayyad Caliph ‘Abd Ar-Rahman II’s ministers that they convert to Islam on pain of death.

My Thoughts, FWTW:

According to St. John Damascene, Mohammed is the "forerunner of the Antichrist;" so what would that make his disciples? Would it make them "good"?

According to the above quoted martyrs, Islam is a damned cult; so there is no such thing as a "good" Muslim, at least not in their opinion, which I quite agree with. Not even the Sufis.

Good maybe in a "strictly" external  civil sense, as in law-abiding; but inwardly, spiritually speaking, they are deluded children of the Antichrist. No escaping that reality, that I can see.

Muslim culture is total anathema to Christian culture. Just witness the  legalized pedophilia practiced in the Arab nations, in the name of Islam.

Girl, 12, fighting to divorce 80-year-old husband in Saudi Arabia || Telegraph
http://www.telegraph...udi-Arabia.html

Girl, 12, fighting to divorce 80-year-old husband in Saudi Arabia || Telegraph
http://www.telegraph...udi-Arabia.html

This 80 year Old Man Married A beautiful 12 year old girl in Saudi Arabia || YouTube
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=TzXYZPz3nlc

Afghan child bride tortured for six months || YouTube
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=0fHqA4GQxsE

11 Year Old Child Bride Speaks About Evil Islam, Murdered After || YouTube
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=q8E601ydP6s

8 year old Yemeni Child Bride Dies on Wedding Night || YouTube
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=PPyS6bmECPg

#393 Olga

Olga

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 2,821 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 25 May 2017 - 02:16 PM

May I remind forum members that this forum is dedicated to the discussion of Orthodox Christianity. We all know that Islam is not part of the Church, so let's leave further prurient examination of it aside.



#394 Rdr Andreas

Rdr Andreas

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,028 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 25 May 2017 - 06:02 PM

As already said, God will judge. There is only one Judge.



#395 Ken McRae

Ken McRae

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 565 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 26 May 2017 - 01:31 AM

Muslim culture is total anathema to Christian culture.


The Prophecies of St. Kosmos of Aitolos (About the Islamic Invasion of Europe) || YouTube
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=5EpOPJ_HhsM

This video is about the life of the great St. Kosmos of Aitolos, as well as his prophecies.

N.B. - Fast forward to the 9:33 point of the video and listen to at least 12:34




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users