Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Is the God of Islam the same God as is worshipped by Christians?


  • Please log in to reply
72 replies to this topic

#21 Michael Albert

Michael Albert

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 241 posts

Posted 04 February 2011 - 05:06 PM

In addition, this reminds me of a story of Fr Arseny. Once a bishop came to visit him, and when the bishop saw all of the secular books in Fr Arseny's library, he told him: "These books aren't necessary." Fr Arseny replied: "Your Emminence, things are different today, because the non-Orthodox are constantly asking us questions, and we have to know how to answer them."
I paraphrased from memory, so someone please correct me if I am wrong.


That's fairly close. I remember reading that.

As far as a patristic answer to the question, I think that St John of Damascus probably addressed this in the most detail (as quoted in post #6). However, there are those who would still dispute St John's words. And of course, we also have the testimony of the Neo-martyrs under the Turkish yoke.

“I have gone to your Mecca and have examined all of your faith, and I have understood that everything about it is false and abominable.”
(The Martyr, St Alexander the dervish +1794)

Edited by Michael Albert, 04 February 2011 - 05:39 PM.


#22 Father David Moser

Father David Moser

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 3,581 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Cleric

Posted 04 February 2011 - 05:10 PM

Just a note to Michael and to all the members of this forum - please note that external formatting does not always translate well to the forum. When you are posting and including text that is formatted in some place other than the Monachos composing window, please preview the post to make sure it's going to look OK. If it doesn't, then go back and edit out all the external tags that do not translate. For an example, one need only to look at the above post #21 and the "FONT" tags that make reading the quote almost impossible.

Fr David Moser

#23 Xenia Moos

Xenia Moos

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 45 posts

Posted 04 February 2011 - 05:16 PM

I used to think Muslims worshiped the same God as Christians because, I reasoned, there is only one Creator and everyone who acknowledges the Creator is talking about the same Person, although they have very different beliefs about Him and none of these beliefs will bring one to salvation except those held by Christians. Nowadays, I think the same dark spirit who gave M. his book is the same dark spirit who hears their prayers, which is not God.

#24 Jake A.

Jake A.

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 156 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 04 February 2011 - 05:24 PM

Islam is the one world religion of the Antichrist which the Bible speaks of, many think the Antichrist is going to be Roman Catholic and come from Italy, when it will most likely be a Muslim, 12th Imam Al Mahdi, their messiah, who is supposed to bring a 7 year peace treaty in the end times, just like the Christian Antichrist is supposed to...

Wallid Shoebat's book "God's War on Terror" goes in great detail about the similarities of Allah to Satan, and Al Mahdi to Antichrist. You can also watch the condensed version of the book in his lecture on YouTube tittled "Islam and Satan".



Saint Seraphim Rose assessed in his book "Orthodoxy And the Religion of the Future" that Hinduism was in fact demon worship, so if Hinduism is demon worship, why isn't Islam? Which can be proven historically and archeologically to have sprang from the moon worshiping cult of Arabia, the idols of which they still venerate (Kaaba).

#25 Michael Albert

Michael Albert

    Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 241 posts

Posted 04 February 2011 - 05:37 PM

Just a note to Michael and to all the members of this forum - please note that external formatting does not always translate well to the forum. When you are posting and including text that is formatted in some place other than the Monachos composing window, please preview the post to make sure it's going to look OK. If it doesn't, then go back and edit out all the external tags that do not translate. For an example, one need only to look at the above post #21 and the "FONT" tags that make reading the quote almost impossible.

Fr David Moser


Sorry. I hope it is repaired.

#26 Fr Raphael Vereshack

Fr Raphael Vereshack

    Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 4,420 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member
  • Verified Monastic Cleric

Posted 04 February 2011 - 10:04 PM

In Word Office 2007 there is a Clear Formatting button on the tool bar. Try highlighting your text and pressing this button before you copy it. See what happens.

In Christ- Fr Raphael

#27 Owen Jones

Owen Jones

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,341 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 04 February 2011 - 11:03 PM

Well, Michael, I should say that you have done a wonderful job of quoting me out of context. All I am saying is that the question itself lacks clarity. That's all. Please do not imply that I am saying there is no difference in beliefs. But please consider it thusly,:the Muslims are actually worshiping something that doesn't really exist. Worshiping something doesn't cause it to exist! Although that gets a little tricky because in Orthodoxy we don't actually say that God exists. Only things exist. But that is an entirely different issue. We use the term existence to apply to God as shorthand.

#28 Nina

Nina

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,149 posts

Posted 04 February 2011 - 11:21 PM

God is God. Unaffected by our understanding of Him. Yes we can divert our understanding if it is erroneous. However His mercy is always there appealing to our souls, to each and everyone of us no matter the religion. All people are His children.

To help us think about this question we have on one hand stories of Saints who were wonderful people and in error such as Saint Plakidas who was pagan before literally meeting Christ. What appeals to God and what draws Him to us no matter our situation is a humble heart and spirit and love for others. Saint Plakidas was also a very generous benefactor to the poor. He possessed the virtues that we as Christians are taught. So being pagan did not prevent God from appearing to him and inviting him to the truth. It was perfect that St. Plakidas followed. Same as Abraham when he was called out of the land of Ur by God, Who was waiting for a heart to call to Him since all souls had turned into error and worshiped all things but the True God.

On the other hand we also have many writings from Saints who denounce all beliefs which deviate from the Truth. For instance it is mentioned above St. John of Damascus. Btw Saint Nikodimos of Beratiou (not to be confused with Saint Nikodimos the Agiorite) said he had a vision and saw that Mohamed was suffering in the deepest pits of hell because he started a heresy which led into error countless souls.

#29 Christina M.

Christina M.

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 696 posts

Posted 04 February 2011 - 11:59 PM

Although that gets a little tricky because in Orthodoxy we don't actually say that God exists. Only things exist. But that is an entirely different issue. We use the term existence to apply to God as shorthand.


Hmmm... I always thought that God was the only existing One. Isn't this why we call Him "Ο Ων" in Greek (the three letters are always seen on the halo of the Lord in icons), which means "The One Who Exists"?

#30 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,517 posts

Posted 05 February 2011 - 01:08 AM

Can someone please answer the following?

1) Does Islam have it's own self-professed "saints"? If yes, then are their "saints" considered to have spiritual powers, like healing, wonderworking, etc?



The only miracle within Islam is the koran. Muslims do not have saints, in fact islamic practise even makes Muhammeds fate uncertain. This is why the name of a prophet is followed by the phrase ,'peace be unto him'. In Orthodoxy we ask the saints to pray for us knowing that their place in bliss is assured.

#31 Owen Jones

Owen Jones

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,341 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 05 February 2011 - 04:57 AM

There is a lot of confusion about the term anti-Christ because it, and the entire book, is loaded with symbolism. Anti-Christ, or the spirit of anti-Christ, really refers to any political leader who promises salvation. It's not really referring to heresies in the strict sense of the term, or other religions. It's not fortune telling either. It's dealing with the reality of the times, and sees that as a predictable event in the future. The prefix anti can mean against something or someone, but can also mean a substitute for. So an Anti-Christ (there are many, because they are personages who represent the spirit of anti-Christ) is someone who essentially presents himself as a Christ substitute. He will fix all of your problems and make you happy. He will seduce you to, in effect, worship him. Christ makes the anti-Christ possible by universalizing salvation, so to speak, and this permits a gnostic version of Himself to manifest itself. Of course, at the time of the text, it was Caesar. An aware Christian at the time could read it and understand the present symbolism, and understand the message. Today we distort it by turning it into a Nostradamos sort of fortune telling.

#32 Evan

Evan

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 481 posts

Posted 05 February 2011 - 12:50 PM

Neither the references to the "man of perdition" who "takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God" in Second Thessalonians nor the Beast who emerges from the sea in the Apocalypse seem to be intended to denote pioneers of doctrinal aberrations-- although both references have been understood throughout Church history as denoting the Antichrist.The character of the Beast in particular seems intended to bring mind the various Roman emperors who persecuted the Faith up to and including Nero, who is designated by a numerical code that iis easy to decipher and whom many seemed to believe would reappear-- thus "one of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but the mortal wound was healed" and "the beast... was wounded by the sword and yet lived." These references clearly denote threats from without.

However, the only actual use of the word "antichrist" in the entire New Testament can be found in the context of a discussion of heresy, where it is used in the plural: "Many antichrists have come... They went out from us, but ther were not of us.... This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.... I write this to you about those who would deceive you." (1 John 2:18-26).

Thus, "antichrist" does not appear to be a static concept, referring to one kind of threat and one kind of threat only, much less one person.

In Christ,
Evan

#33 Owen Jones

Owen Jones

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,341 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 05 February 2011 - 01:28 PM

Thanks for the correction, Evan. I remember discussing antiChrist in our reading of Revelation with our priest. I confess being flumuxed that the term is not found in Revelation, which is referring to Caesar and Caesarism. With that said, there is this symbol of "the spirit of antiChrist" which was my primary point. So, yes it is not a static concept, and, yes, Islam would certainly fall in that category for it clearly is a kind of perversion of Judaism and Christianity that denies the sonship of Christ, but it is one of many antiChrists. Also, I think it is important to recognize that Islam is essentially a political movement.

I would say modern politics also fits, because it explicitly promises all of the things that Christ promised, only it promises it in this life through political action. What we do know is that it is an error to predict the end of the world because of one singular person or event or movement that seems to fit the antiChrist model. Modern politics in fact would not exist in its present form without Christ. It's a gnostic inversion of Christ. AntiChrist is a "compact" symbolism. That is to say, it is not analytically drawn out or precise and frankly does not lend itself to analysis. "Son of Man" is similar. Unfortunately, many well meaning Christians spend a lot of energy trying to anticipate the end of the world by trying to precisely identify who the antiChrist is or will be.

#34 Antonios

Antonios

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,039 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 05 February 2011 - 07:57 PM

With that said, Owen, do you think that there is also the possibility that there will be a specific man who will rise to be a titular head of antichrist, a global world leader of sorts? I agree with what you and Evan have posted, but I don't think it leaves out the possibility that there will be in fact a single person who bodily incorporates all that is antichrist which will rise to power just before the Lord's second coming.

Btw, I wholeheartedly agree with you that Christians spend a lot of energy trying to anticipate the end of the world by trying to precisely identify who the antichrist is or will be when they should be using the energy praying for mercy and forgiveness and following the Word of God.

#35 Aidan Kimel

Aidan Kimel

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 440 posts

Posted 05 February 2011 - 10:49 PM

In response to the question posed by the original poster, "Is the God of Islam the same God as is worshipped by Christians?" it all depends on how one defines one's terms. Muslims confess that Allah is the transcendent creator of the universe, so I suppose in one sense one might say that both Islam and Christianity believe in the same God. Muslims confess that Allah is the God worshipped by Abrahams, so I suppose in one sense one might say that both Islam and Christianity believe in the same God. But ... the respective understandings of who God is is so radically different that one might also say that the two religions worship two very different deities.

I am reminded of this telling passage from G. K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy:

Unitarians (a sect never to be mentioned without a special respect for their distinguished intellectual dignity and high intellectual honour) are often reformers by the accident that throws so many small sects into such an attitude. But there is nothing in the least liberal or akin to reform in the substitution of pure monotheism for the Trinity. The complex God of the Athanasian Creed may be an enigma for the intellect; but He is far less likely to gather the mystery and cruelty of a Sultan than the lonely god of Omar or Mahomet. The god who is a mere awful unity is not only a king but an Eastern king. The heart of humanity, especially of European humanity, is certainly much more satisfied by the strange hints and symbols that gather round the Trinitarian idea, the image of a council at which mercy pleads as well as justice, the conception of a sort of liberty and variety existing even in the inmost chamber of the world. For Western religion has always felt keenly the idea "it is not well for man to be alone." The social instinct asserted itself everywhere as when the Eastern idea of hermits was practically expelled by the Western idea of monks. So even asceticism became brotherly; and the Trappists were sociable even when they were silent. If this love of a living complexity be our test, it is certainly healthier to have the Trinitarian religion than the Unitarian. For to us Trinitarians (if I may say it with reverence) -- to us God Himself is a society. It is indeed a fathomless mystery of theology, and even if I were theologian enough to deal with it directly, it would not be relevant to do so here. Suffice it to say here that this triple enigma is as comforting as wine and open as an English fireside; that this thing that bewilders the intellect utterly quiets the heart: but out of the desert, from the dry places and, the dreadful suns, come the cruel children of the lonely God; the real Unitarians who with scimitar in hand have laid waste the world. For it is not well for God to be alone.


Apart from God's self-revelation in Jesus Christ and Israel, monotheism can be a very dangerous and destructive religion.

#36 Kosta

Kosta

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,517 posts

Posted 06 February 2011 - 01:02 AM

However, the only actual use of the word "antichrist" in the entire New Testament can be found in the context of a discussion of heresy, where it is used in the plural: "Many antichrists have come... They went out from us, but ther were not of us.... This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son.... I write this to you about those who would deceive you." (1 John 2:18-26).

Thus, "antichrist" does not appear to be a static concept, referring to one kind of threat and one kind of threat only, much less one person.

In Christ,
Evan


There you have it. We can say with 100 percent cetainty that Muhammed was an antichrist. Islam not only rejects the Son of God, they reject as blasphemy anyone who confesses God to be a father, or that he can beget a son or anything else. This scriptural verse is as if John had foreknowledge of the coming of this religion.

#37 Owen Jones

Owen Jones

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,341 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 06 February 2011 - 02:01 PM

It seems to me to be blasphemous to want to be able to predict the end of the world by a certain interpretation of historical events. As well as gnostic.

#38 Lourens

Lourens

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 06 February 2011 - 05:44 PM

Why would there be an "end of the world?"

Is it because Islam (and other horrible anti-Christian things) cannot be "wiped out" in any other way?

#39 Antonios

Antonios

    Very Frequent Poster

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,039 posts
  • Orthodox Christian Member

Posted 06 February 2011 - 07:20 PM

Why would there be an "end of the world?"

Is it because Islam (and other horrible anti-Christian things) cannot be "wiped out" in any other way?


Because the Lord has said there will be an end to the world.

#40 Lourens

Lourens

    Regular Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 06 February 2011 - 08:25 PM

Because the Lord has said there will be an end to the world.


I am sorry, I do not recall Jesus declaring an end to the world. I do not mind correction.

Could it be that ideas of "the end of the age," and "the day of the Lord" could mistakenly have become established in our minds as an end of the world, that is, the final destruction of the planet?

Where on earth would it go to?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users