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Signs of the times


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#41 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 10:31 AM

And VV are you sure there was someone allowed to live in the cell of Elder Paisios?


<LOL> not IN his cell ... his cell was no bigger than a 1m by 2m - just enough room for him to do his metanoia and a small bed. What is the name of your Spiritual Father? I want to ask Fr Damaskinos this Friday if they know each other and give you the feedback. I might ask for his blessing to tape record our conversation ... though he does not like one to one conversations taped and especially uploaded to the internet.

Elder Damaskinos is mentioned once in one of the books but I am not allowed to mention where ...

#42 Christina M.

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 12:22 PM

Hi Christina, I would really love to ask Gerontas Damaskinos if he knows Fr Savvas ... do you have his official title so I can approach the Elder monk this Friday?*


Vasiliki - I'm not sure what the exact title for Fr. Savvas would be. I will try to send you a pic via PM sometime soon, if I can find one. Fr. Savvas is very old - I think in his 80's. He was a monk at Philotheou under the Elder Ephraim, and he was one of the first founders of the monastery in AZ. Also, Fr. Savvas was a doctor in Sweden before he left the world at the age of 30-something to be a monk at Mt. Athos. He was good friends with all of the modern saints in Greece, because his elder gave him a blessing to visit all of the renowned elders and to take notes on what they were saying. Fr. Savvas is well-known worldwide among monastics, and is even good friends with a few patriarchs, so I'm pretty sure your SF would know him.

Nina - I really wasn't saying anything in regards to the Poli! :) It was Elder Porphyrios who wrote that letter, so if you have a problem with what he wrote, you better take it out on him. :) St. Kosmas was prophesying for the people of his time, over 200 years ago. Maybe they needed to hear those things at that time because of their particular situation. I'm sure both of these renowned elders were familiar with St. Kosmas' prophecies, but personally I'd prefer to trust the Elder Porphyrios' viewpoints on the subject, since he was much closer to our time. But, as you said, there is no law about these things, so everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Also, Nina, I'm pretty sure that Fr. Athanasios Lemesol (now Metropolitan) was living with the Elder Paisios for a few years, so I am not surprised to hear that other people might have been living with him at other times. I've never heard though that more than 1 person was living with him at a time.

#43 Nina

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 03:53 PM

<LOL> not IN his cell ... his cell was no bigger than a 1m by 2m - just enough room for him to do his metanoia and a small bed. What is the name of your Spiritual Father? I want to ask Fr Damaskinos this Friday if they know each other and give you the feedback. I might ask for his blessing to tape record our conversation ... though he does not like one to one conversations taped and especially uploaded to the internet.

Elder Damaskinos is mentioned once in one of the books but I am not allowed to mention where ...


Umm it is kind of weird that you would tape your convo with your Elder and I am not sure you can post it here, but I trust you do not worry. The only thing is do not take the advise that was given to you by your SF and apply it to all people. It is not ok. Really. I have read that we must not reveal what our SF told us in confession same as our SF should not reveal what we told him. Otherwise God would have appointed only one SF for all. Plus this debate is breeding nothing good. Let people read what they can from Elder Paisios and let God guide them too also. We are not the Saviour of the people. :) Why is it that you have such passion against the people who wrote and published books about Elder? I do not know them at all. But now I feel bad for them.

My previous SF is Father Theologos from Mount Athos. He was a missionary in Albania, and now he is a missionary in Congo.

Nina - I really wasn't saying anything in regards to the Poli! :) It was Elder Porphyrios who wrote that letter, so if you have a problem with what he wrote, you better take it out on him. :)


Well Elder Porphyrios wrote that letter to Elder Paisios according to your info. So he did not write it to Saint Kosmas. But you posted the letter that was intended for someone else with a goal. So you said something about the Poli's prophecies indirectly too. :P And honestly these things are taken out of context and we know nothing. Only time will show what is God's plan. But like it or not Saint Kosmas said those prophecies, and Elder Paisios too.

St. Kosmas was prophesying for the people of his time, over 200 years ago.
Maybe they needed to hear those things at that time because of their particular situation. I'm sure both of these renowned elders were familiar with St. Kosmas' prophecies, but personally I'd prefer to trust the Elder Porphyrios' viewpoints on the subject, since he was much closer to our time.

So? Revelation was given to us earlier than that. Do not indirectly put down stuff because you want to make your point. St. Kosmas is also semi-modern and said things about modern technology we use today (like the net and phone) plus he is from our times and called Equal to the Apostles. Careful how you talk about him :P Truth is Elder Paisios a modern Elder also said things.

But, as you said, there is no law about these things, so everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

You are entitled to your opinion about prophecies regarding Poli? By all means. But also do not use all means here to make a point at the expense of things which are better left aside.

Also, Nina, I'm pretty sure that Fr. Athanasios Lemesol (now Metropolitan) was living with the Elder Paisios for a few years, so I am not surprised to hear that other people might have been living with him at other times. I've never heard though that more than 1 person was living with him at a time.

Ok good, you and VV kept the calendar of people who lived and did not live in the cell of Elder Paisios. VV said above that "his cell was no bigger than a 1m by 2m - just enough room for him to do his metanoia and a small bed." Now you say this. You both are women like I am and last time I checked neither of us went to Mount Athos and let alone to the cell of Elder Paisios, so it is not our place to reveal to the world who lived where in Athos. I am sure your Elders would agree with me in that. Let things be. ok?

Now this feels more like a competition in the playground, but how do I reconcile what you and VV say with a prophecy Elder Paisios said about me to my SF? And the thing is I do not know if it is fulfilled yet or it will. I think about it often but I do not know so I forget about it and do not get to entangled with it. So just let the poor guy say his prophecies and do not get too much tangled up. I am sure also your Elders never ever heard this prophecy by Elder Paisios about me. Only my SF heard it. So my point is your Elders can not know ALL things that Elder Paisios said. And no. I am not putting words in Elder Paisios' mouth. Because this prophecy was told to my SF, who said it to me and I do not think any one knows it. And that does not make it non-authentic.

#44 Jason Hunt

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 06:10 PM

I apologize if these articles have already been posted here somewhere, but from the present thread it seems that some have not read them and may benefit from them. Both are from John Sanidopoulos' blog:

The Prophetic Elder Paisios and the Misuse of His Words



http://www.johnsanid...-misuse-of.html

By Monk Moses the Athonite

Very much has been said and written about the blessed Elder Paisios the Athonite (1924-1994). Already 16 years have passed since his blessed repose. He passed away on 07/12/1994 in the Monastery of Saint John the Theologian in Souroti, Thessaloniki and is buried there. His tomb is a pan-Orthodox place of pilgrimage. People of all ages come from far away to light a candle and invoke help for their needs.

Those who mention his name today do so with emotion, respect and love together with the Holy Mountain. He was indeed a true man of God, ascetic, humble, modest, non-possessive, respected, loved and charismatic. Those of us who knew him remember well the grace of his words, his goodness, his kindness and his sincerity. He was never flattered, never falsely comforting, never fake and never chatty. His words were life, graceful, heaven-sent, substantial and significant. Even with some of his jokes he tried to comfort the listener's pain.

For this reason great attention is required in the distribution of his words. Sometimes his words were only for the person he was personally speaking with, and certainly not for everyone. It is not correct to generalize, distort, deform, and alter his words. Some of his prophetic words are magnified by some who love extremes and want to pass their own message by using the words of the ever-memorable Elder. There are always some who are inclined towards fanaticism, zealotism, terrorism and fearful eschatology.

The blessed Elder Paisios often spoke of "holy philotimo", "holy solitude", "holy silence", "holy humility" and "holy levendia". Throughout his life he was philotimos, ascetic, humble and a levendis. He would say: "The Gospel and secular logic are incompatible. In the Gospel there is love. In logic is self-interest." Is this not how it is? In difficult times we need to reconnect with the Divine. Elder Paisios is another bridge to heaven. He would say: "In our love towards our neighbor hides our love for Christ." He was always full of love for his neighbor. His words are kept carefully in books with high circulation. The world's search for true comfort has not ceased. His teachings illumine, quench the thirst, rouse, bring one back to their senses, and strengthen.

He would say thoughtfully and proactively: "People today suffer from cultures." Or: "We will see the most incredible things." Further: "If things are not shared with the Gospel they will be shared with a knife." Thirty years ago he said: "People will leave the cities because of culture. Culture now brings sicknesses." He advised: "God will allow a strong jolt. Difficult years are coming. Let us live spiritually. The choice is clear, we are with Christ or with the Devil. It is a storm and the struggle has value." He would knowingly admonish: "The current situation can only be addressed spiritually, not in a worldly way. In this situation you will see, some will have a salary and others will pay their debts. God will put things in their place, but each of us will answer for what we did in these difficult years...."

Is he not right? Is he too much? He is prophetic. Recent references to his appearance, in which he said to gather food, have no justification, no basis, but are fantasies of the naive....

Source: Protaton, Oct.-Dec. 2010.

Translated by John Sanidopoulos


Article 2:

False Rumors of Apocalytpic Visions and Elder Paisios



http://www.johnsanid...isions-and.html

On various Greek blogs it is being reported that Elder Paisios the Athonite has recently predicted that Greece will be in war in three months. This was first reported in late August when a certain monk from Mount Athos was reportedly in a hospital in Thessaloniki, and released this information he heard from other monks on Mount Athos.

Basically the monk said that Elder Paisios was walking outside the Monastery of Saint Panteleimon on Mount Athos two weeks prior. There he met three young monks who approached the Elder and went to receive his blessing, but as they moved forward to do this the Elder pulled back and said: "Go to your Elder and tell him to buy large barrels of oil and flour because in three months from now we will have war in Greece and the people will be in hunger. Tell your Elder to inform the other monasteries about this."

The report which mentions this (see here) goes on to say that in the past week from when this was reported monks were seen at the Super Markets of Thessaloniki gathering oil and flour. He also mentions that this may be due to a recent prophecy of St. Kosmas Aitolos which may have been fulfilled with the recent Patriarchal Liturgy at Panagia Soumela in Trebizond (see here).

A few days ago, however, the new brotherhood of Esphigmenou Monastery officially addressed this issue and reported that it is a false rumor and it should not be taken seriously by Orthodox Christians. They wrote the following:

"NEVER did the holy Elder advise to gather foods! If I had stored foods all those in a time of hunger will kill me! If I don't have anything, then I will survive with some grass. Elder Paisios, a genuine voice of the monastic spirit, would have given his life in order for others to live! BE CAREFUL! Some are preaching catastrophies! Let us not do them a favor! The Elder would say that God shockingly loves Greece! These days we have the Holy Administration, and we have had no monk come forward to tell of this event, in accordance with the command of the Holy Elder Paisios. Neither the Holy Administration nor the Holy Community of Mount Athos has received knowledge of these events." (Source)



#45 Nina

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 06:17 PM

I apologize if these articles have already been posted here somewhere, but from the present thread it seems that some have not read them and may benefit from them. Both are from John Sanidopoulos' blog:

Article 2:


Thank you for these blogs but Vasiliki, Christina and I are not talking about appearances of Elder - I had no idea he had appeared, or not to people. We were talking about books by Elder Paisios, or about him.

#46 Jason Hunt

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 06:31 PM

As one who has great respect for my own spiritual father, of whom I am not worthy, I wonder whether it is wise to even tell others who our spiritual father is? I wonder also if we should be somewhat skeptical if we find that in fact someone is claiming to be the disciple or spiritual child of a great elder? We have a case here in America of one particular monastery where the abbot claims to be one of the last disciples of a particularly renowned elder, and yet this abbot never lived with the renowned elder under obedience to him for any length of time in order to be purified of his passions and properly trained in the monastic arena. This abbot was eventually found to be guilty of serious acts of immorality, such that his claims to being the renowned elder's disciple seem only to darken the elder's reputation rather than strengthen the reputation of the abbot in question. My point is that while we should strive to find a good elder who can help us to put to death the passions, we must strive even harder to be good disciples of whoever we find ourselves in obedience to. Judas had as his spiritual father the Incarnate Logos Himself, and the second Person of the Holy Trinity, and yet this association could not save him if he was not willing to be obedient in order to save himself. Similarly, we should not think too much of the supposed spiritual children or disciples of recent renowned elders, but should test them and approach them with some discernment, lest we entrust our souls to another Judas rather than to Christ.

Along these lines, the following words from St. John of the Ladder are very appropriate for the Great Fast:

Step 4: 6

When motives of humility and real longing for salvation incite us to bend our neck and entrust ourselves to another in the Lord, before entering upon this life, if there is any cleverness and prudence in us, we ought first to question and examine, and even, so to speak, test our helmsman, so as not to mistake the sailor for the pilot, a sick man for a doctor, a passionate for a dispassionate man, the sea for a harbor, and so bring about the speedy shipwreck of our soul.


Step 4: 83

I saw an inexperienced disciple who, in the presence of certain people boasted of the achievements of his teacher, thinking to win glory for himself from another’s harvest; but he only earned for himself dishonor, for everybody asked him: ‘But how could a good tree grow such a barren branch?’



#47 Father David Moser

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 07:32 PM

A new thread has been created to address specifically these comments which are falsely attributed to the Athonite Elders (in this case particularly Paisios and Porfyrios. Please continue that discussion on the new thread. Continued discussion of the signs of the times should continue here.

Fr David

#48 Kosta

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 08:52 PM

I remember where he said something to the effect, that theres no reason not to accept these. That its the beginning of the technology which will lead to the mark but its not the mark.

#49 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 10:37 PM

The only thing is do not take the advise that was given to you by your SF and apply it to all people. It is not ok. Really. I have read that we must not reveal what our SF told us in confession same as our SF should not reveal what we told him.


Nina mou, I have not revealed things from confession. Everything I have commented on has been spoken in public by the monk, consistently in open public forums.

#50 Vasiliki D.

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Posted 22 March 2011 - 11:54 PM

As one who has great respect for my own spiritual father, of whom I am not worthy, I wonder whether it is wise to even tell others who our spiritual father is? I wonder also if we should be somewhat skeptical if we find that in fact someone is claiming to be the disciple or spiritual child of a great elder?
Along these lines, the following words from St. John of the Ladder are very appropriate for the Great Fast:


Yes, we should be skeptical but not rude by quoting lines from the Philokalia that infer a particular sinful disposition in the person we are dialoguing with.

Rather, we ask the right questions to draw out the information we need to clarify if the information we are receiving is true. So, since most of your post is directed to me, Christina and Nina then I can at least answer for myself the following:

When a the responsible Archbishop/Bishop of a Diocese (such as Australia in this example) gives a blessing for a particular monk to visit the country annually and give talks for every single day during the great lent via a rotational roster for all the parishes ... there is a level of credibility behind the guest being invited. He (in this case the Elder Damaskinos) has been screened and authenticated by the Archbishop (in this case, Archbishop Stylianos of All Australia).

There is more that I can say about the "authority" of this monk to speak but I can not since I have not asked for his blessing to continue further. As I mentioned in a post (that Father David Moser has moved to a new thread) when this monk returns to Mount Athos he will receive the blessing from his own Spiritual father to write an official comment (at my request since I have heard him mention this for four years now and I asked him to put it to paper so that the insatiable appetite of the Internet Orthodox can be satisfied.

God Bless.

#51 Nina

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 12:08 AM

I remember where he said something to the effect, that theres no reason not to accept these. That its the beginning of the technology which will lead to the mark but its not the mark.


Yes I have read the same:

[Question] -Geronda, what is the relationship between the ID card and the seal?

[Answer] - The ID card is not the seal; it is the introduction to the seal.



p.206 'Spiritual Awakening'

#52 Seraphim Papadakis

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 01:19 AM

Okay this thread was initially started as to what is the view of the Church and our spiritual fathers as a majority, but also through the life of Elders. This is not in anyway a thread to concentrate on. It is best to spend more time on prayer to glorify God rather than to create obstacles and worries for ourselves as to whether this is a mark or that is a mark. We do not know as of yet when and how, but we have our faith in God, that He will protect us. In my opinion (personal) is that anything that hampers our spiritual freedom and free will in praise of Christianity and our Lord Jesus Christ, should be questioned. The center of our attention AT ALL TIMES in this life is Jesus Christ and nothing else. In all situations, in every aspect of our life, whether free or a slave, in pain or in happiness, in sorrow or in sadness even at times where we think that a situation is a never ending one, in tiredness, whether a rich who lost all his money, or a poor, at all times of our life, we shall lean towards Christ and pray to Christ and His Grace is more powerful than anything else cosmic in this life. Anything else in this world , it is meaningless , a distraction. Yes there is a personal time for us, and God loves us , we are His children and He cares about us. We can relax, and do something we like and spend time playing, listening to music, surfing the web. We are only human after all, but what is the most important thing in this life, where is our focus and heart and mind and soul? Our Lord Jesus Christ, our confession that through faith we do believe in Him, He will salvate us whatever the circumstances. Even if the whole world is against us. What remains in this life is our good deeds. Not what we do for ourselves, but what we do for others. Even the smallest things to us, might change somebody's heart. (post edited for typos)

#53 Nina

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Posted 23 March 2011 - 05:26 PM

Ok thanks Seraphim, but can you please not post entire articles like you did in post # 19 in this thread and in foreign language. Without explaining to others what the article was about. And also without stating who the author or person interviewed is. Since you were talking about Elder Paisios and posted at the same time the article which was with thoughts of Fr. N. M and not Elder Paisios! And actually since that article you posted in this thread things got very confusing for many here since you did not explain; and people tried to translate it through google thinking you had posted an article by Elder Paisios.

#54 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 29 March 2011 - 06:03 PM

A government has the power to assign a number and even allot a card without the consent of a citizen, resident, or visitor--it becomes your number, even if you repudiate it. If that is the Mark, then a mortal government would be more powerful than God.

#55 Seraphim Papadakis

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 06:29 AM

This answered my questions.

Ecclesiastes:
{..
Who is as the wise man? and who knoweth the interpretation of a thing? A man's wisdom maketh his face to shine, and the boldness of his face is changed. Be not hasty to go out of his presence; stand not in an evil thing; for he doeth whatsoever pleaseth him. Forasmuch as the king's word hath power; and who may say unto him: 'What doest thou?' Whoso keepeth the commandment shall know no evil thing; and a wise man's heart discerneth time and judgment. For to every matter there is a time and judgment; for the evil of man is great upon him. For he knoweth not that which shall be; for even when it cometh to pass, who shall declare it unto him? There is no man that hath power over the wind to retain the wind; neither hath he power over the day of death; and there is no discharge in war; neither shall wickedness deliver him that is given to it. All this have I seen, even applied my heart thereto, whatever the work that is done under the sun; what time one man had power over another to his hurt. And so I saw the wicked buried, and they entered into their rest; but they that had done right went away from the holy place, and were forgotten in the city; this also is vanity. Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil; because a sinner doeth evil a hundred times, and prolongeth his days--though yet I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, that fear before Him; but it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow, because he feareth not before God. There is a vanity which is done upon the earth: that there are righteous men, unto whom it happeneth according to the work of the wicked; again, there are wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous--I said that this also is vanity. So I commended mirth, that a man hath no better thing under the sun, than to eat, and to drink, and to be merry, and that this should accompany him in his labour all the days of his life which God hath given him under the sun. When I applied my heart to know wisdom, and to see the business that is done upon the earth--for neither day nor night do men see sleep with their eyes-- then I beheld all the work of God, that man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun; because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further, though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it. For all this I laid to my heart, even to make clear all this: that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God; whether it be love or hatred, man knoweth it not; all is before them. All things come alike to all; there is one event to the righteous and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth and to him that sacrificeth not; as is the good, so is the sinner, and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that there is one event unto all; yea also, the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die; but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is long ago perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God hath already accepted thy works. Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no oil. Enjoy life with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which He hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity; for that is thy portion in life, and in thy labour wherein thou labourest under the sun. Whatsoever thy hand attaineth to do by thy strength, that do; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. For man also knoweth not his time; as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare, even so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. This also have I seen as wisdom under the sun, and it seemed great unto me: there was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great bulwarks against it; now there was found in it a man poor and wise, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man. Then said I: 'Wisdom is better than strength; nevertheless the poor man's wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard.' The words of the wise spoken in quiet are more acceptable than the cry of a ruler among fools. Wisdom is better than weapons of war; but one sinner destroyeth much good. ... }

#56 Effie Ganatsios

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:47 AM

Father Paisios believed, as Nina explained, that the new identity cards are only the first step. The next step will be microchips that will be implanted in our bodies. He said that there will come a time when you will not be able to buy or sell something without these cards. How could he have known this more than 15 years ago?

Here in Greece we have always had identity cards with a photo, fingerprint (not included in the most recent ones), name, date of birth, parents names, birthplace, etc.

These new electronic cards will, in addition to the above, include personal information such as : any existing medical conditions, tax number, health insurance number, criminal status, etc.

And it has been proven by someone in England that it takes very little time to break the code on these cards. The English of course were smarter than us and just the thought of an ordinary identification card (similar to the ones we have now) caused an uproar and the law was changed.

We meekly bow our heads as lambs to the slaughter.

#57 Effie Ganatsios

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 08:53 AM

Archbishop Chrysodoulos has died. He was a fighter. He was a thorn in the side of whoever planned the downfall of Greece.

Archbishop Ieronymos has been assured that the public servant status of Greek priests will not change and he keeps silent. Coincidence?

Unfortunately those in command of our Orthodox Church here in Greece have abandoned us.

#58 John Konstantin

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 11:16 AM

We meekly bow our heads as lambs to the slaughter.


I appreciate how all of us may from time to time may have national pride. However, if the Anti-Christ did have a plan to subvert the world with the mark of the beast I think it would be a global phenomenon. You appear fixated by a small and largely ( in terms of the military, economics and world politics) un-important nation state.

#59 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:40 PM

Father Paisios believed, as Nina explained, that the new identity cards are only the first step. The next step will be microchips that will be implanted in our bodies. He said that there will come a time when you will not be able to buy or sell something without these cards. How could he have known this more than 15 years ago?


In the USA, 15 years ago, underskin microchips were often used to identify and keep track of valuable animals, such as purebred dogs. Putting them into humans was already being discussed widely. It would hardly be prophetic to mention what was already spoken about by millions of people. Now, it might have been clairvoyant, if Elder Paisios had no visitors from the USA, no visitors from Western Europe, and no access to outside newspapers. Likewise, the fear that a numbered government-issued card would be required to buy or sell anything was very widespread in the 1930s in the USA, when the USA adopted the Social Security number system. It was denounced as the Mark of the Beast, and Roosevelt as the Beast--the Lord was going to show up any day during his presidency. Roosevelt is gone, and our Master is still waiting for the time known only to the Father. This is not to say that Elder Paisios did not have great discernment and understanding of the flaws of human nature. I would guess that this comes along with the Grace that God gives to the holy.

Regarding how meekly people bow their heads to such government shenanigans, it is exactly what one should expect if one demands that government "take care of" people. If a government becomes a nanny, then nanny must know best. If nanny makes sure everyone is fed, clothed, comfortable, entertained, and otherwise pleased, then nanny gets to control any behavior that goes along with feeding, clothing, comfort, entertainment, or pleasure, and nanny may also restrict people from interfering with nanny's business. Children are taken care of by their parents. The parents ensure food, clothing, that the children are free of fear, etc. In return, the parents control where the children go, what the children eat, what they may read, how they are to behave in public and in private. The exact same thing applies to government. Want the government to guarantee jobs? Then government will have the right to dictate where you work. Want the government to guarantee a "standard of living", then government will have the right to dictate everything you do in regard to that "standard of living". You cannot have one without the other.

The governments will wrap it in paper marked "charity", but the pretty paper only conceals shackles. Only God (the Trinity) is moral enough to decide all that we do. Only God is moral enough to see our every thought. The rest of us are fallen and should not be trusted with that much authority.

#60 Bryan J. Maloney

Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 31 March 2011 - 05:41 PM

I appreciate how all of us may from time to time may have national pride. However, if the Anti-Christ did have a plan to subvert the world with the mark of the beast I think it would be a global phenomenon. You appear fixated by a small and largely ( in terms of the military, economics and world politics) un-important nation state.


Kill a victim by tiny cuts, and he will be less likely to complain. "Look at how well it worked in that country! We must do it here!"




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