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What is the fate of unbaptized babies?


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#261 Hieromonk Ambrose

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 05:30 AM

There is a priest of the Russian Church Abroad Fr Aidan Kimel who presents in a series of six essays the Teaching of Saint Isaac the Syrian, teachings which are pertinent to our topic.
Here is the last of the essays
“Good news and bad news: All are saved … Satan too"
If you click the hyperlink at the bottom of the article its takes you to
the first in the series.

Edited by Hieromonk Ambrose, 25 August 2013 - 05:32 AM.


#262 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 07:49 AM

According to Strong, the Greek words used in the NT for which English has 'hell' are 'hades', 'gehenna', and 'Tartarus' (once, by St Peter).  The word κόλαση which Christ used in Matthew 25:46 is translated as 'punishment'.



#263 Hieromonk Ambrose

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:29 AM

According to Strong, the Greek words used in the NT for which English has 'hell' are 'hades', 'gehenna', and 'Tartarus' (once, by St Peter).  The word κόλαση which Christ used in Matthew 25:46 is translated as 'punishment'.

Although Greek was widely used throughout the Roman Empire Christ was more likely to have used Aramaic.



#264 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 09:35 AM

No doubt, but our Holy Church has given us the Greek NT.



#265 Lakis Papas

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 02:39 PM

Theologian's adopted the greek term "kolasis" -> from greek term "kolazw" = punishment.

 

From Aristotle's Rhetoric:   http://rhetoric.eser...e/rhet1-10.html

 

"Revenge (greek: timwria) and punishment (greek: kolasis) are different things. Punishment is inflicted for the sake of the person punished; revenge for that of the punisher, to satisfy his feelings."


Edited by Lakis Papas, 25 August 2013 - 02:39 PM.


#266 Hieromonk Ambrose

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 03:54 PM

No doubt, but our Holy Church has given us the Greek NT.

 

 

It was just that you wrote Christ used the Greek word "kolasi" and I found that a bit odd.



#267 Kosta

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 08:18 PM

Well Tartarus used in the NT once, and images used in other parts of Peter's epistle was just one region in Hades. It was the darkest part described as being pitch black. 

 

Kolasi Aionon used in Matt (eternal punishment). This word would correspond to the aramaic word Gehenna used by Christ such as in Mark 9.43-48. 

 

The entymology of the word can mean to be 'stuck' in one place or can mean to be 'cut off'. It would be interesting to see how it was used by Plato as these ideas are borrowed from that time.

 

Supposedly a byzantine christian writing the 'Sacred Parallels' purported to have been written by St John Of Damascus , in one o the chapters on the Dead it is written, "...This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season which God has determined, when He will make a ressurection of all men from the dead."  Only this quote seems to be floating aound as i cant find a translation of this work in engish.

 

But if the wordHades in Russian also means Hell, as i said in my previous post it explains alot. Once again I now realize why the greeks are more likely to use the explanation that in the afterlife we experience the Light of God as either a burning flame or as bliss. The greeks would consider Hades as the abode for all the souls whie in Russian there is a definate demarcation line between heaven and hell (hades).


Edited by Kosta, 25 August 2013 - 08:22 PM.


#268 Hieromonk Ambrose

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:47 AM

Well Tartarus used in the NT once, and images used in other parts of Peter's epistle was just one region in Hades.

 

Would you provide the names and if possible a brief description and the purpose of the other regions of Hades.

 

I confess to being totally ignorant.



#269 Kosta

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:54 AM

Do you mean what the ancient Greek philosophers, poets, mythology used to believe about Hades?

#270 Hieromonk Ambrose

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:55 AM

>"...This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season which God has determined, when He will make a ressurection of all men from the dead."  "

 

This is how I would understand Hades too - the intermediate state of the souls of both righteous and sinners until the Last Judgement .

 

One odd thing though is Synods do not employ the word Hades for such a state.  Reference Jerusalem 1672, ROCA 1980, (and Saint Augustine.)

 

Another odd thing is that some contributors here deny the righteous are in Hades.

 

For these reasons of clarification, it would be helpful if you could clarify all the regions of Hades.


Edited by Hieromonk Ambrose, 26 August 2013 - 01:47 AM.


#271 Hieromonk Ambrose

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:58 AM

Do you mean what the ancient Greek philosophers, poets, mythology used to believe about Hades?

 

Not really.  I am hoping for your further explication of Christian teaching on the regions of Hades,  with reference to "Well Tartarus used in the NT once, and images used in other parts of Peter's epistle was just one region in Hades."



#272 Kosta

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 09:00 AM

I'm not sure in the 21st century how helpful it would be. Just as most of the Fathers teach that Hades is under the Earth, but I doubt drilling into the earth's crust we will find it. Nor would I expect to find Abraham's bosom in the core of the Earth. But as the beggar was carried off to Abraham's bosom the rich man found himself in Hades conversing with Abraham, meaning their location is next to each other. 

 

St Hippolytus indeed does give the location of Abrahams bosom  to be underground in Hades:

 

...' But now we must speak of Hades, in which the souls both of the righteous and the unrighteous are detained. Hades is a place in the created system, rude, a locality beneath the earth, in which the light of the world does not shine; and as the sun does not shine in this locality, there must necessarily be perpetual darkness there......  But the righteous shall obtain the incorruptible and un-fading kingdom, who indeed are at present detained in Hades, but not in the same place with the unrighteous. For to this locality there is one descent, at the gate whereof we believe an archangel is stationed with a host. And when those who are conducted by the angels appointed unto the souls have passed through this gate, they do not proceed on one and the same way; but the righteous, being conducted in the light toward the right, and being hymned by the angels stationed at the place, are brought to a locality full of light. And there the righteous from the beginning dwell, not ruled by necessity, but enjoying always the contemplation of the blessings which are in their view, and delighting themselves with the expectation of others ever new, and deeming those ever better than these. And that place brings no toils to them. There, there is neither fierce heat, nor cold, nor thorn; but the face of the fathers and the righteous is seen to be always smiling, as they wait for the rest and eternal revival in heaven which succeed this location. And we call it by the name Abraham’s bosom.

 

As far as Tartarus:

 

In 2 Pet 2.4 : For if God spared not the angels that sinned but cast them down to Tartarus and delivered them to chains of darkness... 2.17- 'These (people) are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest to whom the mist of darkness is reserved forever.

Jude says the same of Tartarus (13)- Raging waves of the sea foaming out their own shame wandering stars , to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever..

 

 

St Basil the Great in the third kneeling prayer of Pentecost confirms this region of Tartarus:

 

 O Thou Who didst descend into Hades, and demolish the eternal bars, revealing an ascent to those who were in the lower abode; Who with the lure of divine wisdom didst entice the dragon, the head of subtle evil and with Thy boundless power bound him in abysmal hell, in inextinguishable fire, and extreme darkness.

 

 

The whole point is Hades is the waiting room until the second coming. Its either a place of rest, or a place of sorrow and imprisonment. But the inmates no longer run the asylum, Hades was despoiled and the veil of seperation torn assunder.  Even though Hades is usually used to describe a prison, moreso than heaven its still the one and only intermediate realm. St Mark of Ephesus explains:

 

But if, as was said, no-one has entered either the Kingdom or Gehenna, how is it that we hear concerning the rich man and Lazarus that the former was in fire and torment and spoke with Abraham?.....  The parable of Lazarus has not come to pass in actuality, because the sinners in Gehenna shall not see the righteous who are with Abraham in the Kingdom, nor will any of them know his neighbour, being in that darkness.

Accepting this opinion our Church thus is minded and preaches, and She is most ready and well prepared to defend it. Firstly, the Lord in the Gospel according to Matthew describes beforehand the judgment to come, saying, "Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit..." - it is evident that they have not yet inherited - "the kingdom prepared for you;" "prepared" He says, not "already given." But to sinners He says, "Depart ye cursed" - evidently they have not yet departed - into everlasting fire "prepared" not for you but "for the devil and his angels.... 

 "And all these, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise, God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect" (Hb.11:39-40). This we must think concerning all the faithful and righteous who lived until the Master's coming. For just as those who have gone before have not been made perfect without the apostles, so neither are the apostles without the martyrs, nor the martyrs without those who after them have entered and shall enter into the good vineyard of the Church. This is indeed taught most lucidly by the parable where at different times there were different callings for workmen into the vineyard, but the recompense was given to all at the same time, and those who came first received nothing more. The great Evangelist, John the Theologian says the same in Revelations: "And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the soul of those who were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held, and they cried with a loud voice saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them and it was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants and also their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled" (Rev.6:9-11). From all these things, therefore, it is evident that neither are the saints in perfect enjoyment of those good thing and of the blessedness to come, nor have sinners already received condemnation and been sent away to torment. (Ten Arguments against Purgatory Mark Eugenikos)

 

 

If its neither the Kingdom nor Gehenna then all thats left is Hades.  The repentant thief asked Christ to remember him in his Kingdom, Christ affirmed that on that same day they will be together in Paradise, thus the 'kingdom', 'paradise', Hades were all synonymous.



#273 Kosta

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:16 AM

>"...This is the discourse concerning Hades, wherein the souls of all men are confined until a proper season which God has determined, when He will make a ressurection of all men from the dead."  "

 

This is how I would understand Hades too - the intermediate state of the souls of both righteous and sinners until the Last Judgement .

 

One odd thing though is Synods do not employ the word Hades for such a state.  Reference Jerusalem 1672, ROCA 1980, (and Saint Augustine.)

 

Another odd thing is that some contributors here deny the righteous are in Hades.

 

For these reasons of clarification, it would be helpful if you could clarify all the regions of Hades.

 

 

I'm not familiar with the ROCOR 1980 synod, but if in Russian the word Hades is limited to hell only, I imagine thats how its referenced.

In the Jerusalem council of 1672, ( which I find is not an ideal council of the Church, as it used language and`examples so the non-orthodox westerners could understand, yet the Orthodox of that era would be unfamiliar with this terminology and imprecise answers to boot). From what I see Hades is the place of those assured of salvation, and is not really associated with hell (neither eternal punishment, nor gehenna, nor darkness and gnashing of teeth) :


Decree 18:

We believe that the souls of those that have fallen asleep are either at rest or in torment, according to what each has done; — for when they are separated from their bodies, they depart immediately either to joy, or to sorrow and lamentation; though confessedly neither their enjoyment nor condemnation are complete.... 

And the souls of those involved in mortal sins, who have not departed in despair, but while still living in the body, though without bringing forth any fruits of repentance, have repented by pouring forth tears, by kneeling while watching in prayers, by afflicting themselves, by relieving the poor, and finally by showing forth by their works their love towards God and their neighbor, and which the Catholic Church has from the beginning rightly called satisfaction — [their souls] depart into Hades, and there endure the punishment due to the sins they have committed. But they are aware of their future release from there, and are delivered by the Supreme Goodness, through the prayers of the Priests, and the good works which the relatives of each do for their Departed.....

 

 

 

Arent prayers what all Orthodox christians expect from their Orthodox family once they depart? Doesnt the Church believe it beneficial that all those who have departed should be prayed for and many are in need of our prayers? Its only the Saints of the Church that do not need the prayers for the dead, as we instead ask them to pray for us. 


Edited by Kosta, 26 August 2013 - 11:25 AM.


#274 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 11:29 AM

Well, I am thoroughly confused!  Hades was destroyed and despoiled - or perhaps not.  According to Pomazansky, gehenna is what will be after the last judgment, whilst after the partial judgment, souls will experience 'paradise' or 'hell'.  'Paradise' certainly seems to be where the righteous go after death, as the Lord indicated to the Good Thief.  But what name is found in the liturgical and patristic deposit for the torment experienced by the wicked after their death and the partial judgment?  Can we in fact call this hell?

 

More generally, are paradise and heaven the same thing?  Are the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God the same thing (as the Gospel of St Matthew seems to suggest) but not the same as paradise or heaven? 



#275 Kosta

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Posted 26 August 2013 - 12:08 PM

Even the Garden of Eden which is closed shut and guarded by a fiery sword is called paradise. We are just too fixated on the terminology. Third heaven, Kingdom of God, Paradise, Place of Rest, Abraham's Bosom, all convey the same thing.

 

Hamartia means missing the mark, The archer shoots his arrow and misses the center of the target, that imperfection is whats called sin.  Those imperfections seperate us from the mark which is union with God. The greater the seperation the further away from the divine light we get eventually leading to darkness. We finally distance ourselves so far from God that we create a gulf between us and Him. The chasm is not a borderline between heaven and hell, its the amount of space we must erase to be back into the tight embrace of His bossom

 

Where Christ is there is the Catholic Church; the Kingdom of God. Hades was destroyed its no longer under the dominion of the evil one, having bound him and overtaken his house.


Edited by Kosta, 26 August 2013 - 12:12 PM.





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