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Is the God of Baptists the same as the God of Orthodox Christians?


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#21 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 12:10 PM

In whom do converts from Islam believe before they became Orthodox?


Well before I became Orthodox (and I am still not properly Orthodox as I have yet to be received) I was trying to worship the God that the Old Testament Church worshipped the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The God the Apostles and the New Testament Church worshipped. Mohammedites whilst they are still Mohammedites worship a god that is not begotten and does not beget.

#22 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:30 PM

Well before I became Orthodox (and I am still not properly Orthodox as I have yet to be received) I was trying to worship the God that the Old Testament Church worshipped the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


Funny, but that's the same thing I said about Muslims. They THINK they are worshiping that God, but they are not actually worshiping that God. They worship another god, entirely, and only have the misconception that they worship the God of Abraham, etc. The exact same thing could just as easily be said about Baptists. If the Muslims do not worship God but another being, even though they might believe they worship God, why not the Baptists?

#23 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:37 PM

Why can't we believe that the God is the same (as there only is one) for all but that man himself has misinterpreted or misguided others earthly reasons and on the basis that "broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction" and "beware of false prophets ..." Matthew 7. 13 and 15.?


It is very important to some Westerners (especially some Evangelical Christians here in the USA) to insist that the being worshiped by Islam is not and cannot be God. Indeed, I've sat and kept my tongue still while listening to some "teacher" or another at my mother-in-law to be's parish insist that the deity of Islam cannot be God because they call him "Allah" instead of "God". I'm not kidding! When I pointed out that Arab Christians use "Allah" to refer to God, these Evangelicals got offended at the very idea that such a name could be applied to Him. I don't know how things are in other countries, but in parts of the USA, there is almost a fetish about the issue. Such people that I've come across here in Texas also have had a very hard time believing me when I told them that there are Arab Christians whose families have been Christian longer than their entire Anglo/Texan ancestry can be traced back, Christian before Baptist missionaries went around the world, Christian before the USA was formed, Christian before Martin Luther, Christian before any form of the English language as we would recognize it existed.

That was when it struck me, if it is potentially blasphemous for Arab Christians to say "Allah", then how could it be any more of a stretch to question whether or not the Baptists actually worship God, either?

#24 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:40 PM

Funny, but that's the same thing I said about Muslims. They THINK they are worshiping that God, but they are not actually worshiping that God. They worship another god, entirely, and only have the misconception that they worship the God of Abraham, etc. The exact same thing could just as easily be said about Baptists. If the Muslims do not worship God but another being, even though they might believe they worship God, why not the Baptists?

Since if you read the rest of my post it says

The God the Apostles and the New Testament Church worshipped. Mohammedites whilst they are still Mohammedites worship a god that is not begotten and does not beget.



#25 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:51 PM

Because we build a false image of what we think God is and that is idolatry.


How far are we to go with that principle?
We would both agree that Shinto and Hindu are so far away as to be excluded.
Islam would be easily excludable by most people on Monachos.
Judaism--well, there might be some wavering.
How about Mormons?
Seventh-Day Adventists?
Charismatic protestants?
Evangelical protestants?
Methodists, Anglicans, Presbyterians?
Roman Catholics?
Uniates?
Assyrians?
Oriental Orthodox?

At what point do we draw the line and say "This group worships God, however incorrectly, but that group worships some other being."?

Why do we speak so certainly about some groups and not about others? Is not the actual divide between those who have accepted the guidance of the Church and everyone else who has not? Those who have not are in darkness, forced to fumble along as best they can on their own. Whether they have been blindfolded by others or choose to close their eyes, they are still in the dark. Thus, what does it profit us, as Christians, to argue over who is ten feet from a flashlight or 100 miles from a flashlight? In either case, is not someone still in the dark, without a flashlight, bound by a blindfold or closing their own eyes? Perhaps the man closer to the flashlight might be more likely to accidentally stumble upon it, but then he'd still have to teach himself how to turn it on, remember to open his eyes, or even more sadly, realize that he has been blindfolded so he will understand that it has to be taken off for him to see.

What does it matter if someone is blindfolded by a familiar bandanna or an alien keffiyeh?

#26 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:52 PM

Since if you read the rest of my post it says


I did read the rest of your post--and it looks like quibbling. I would say that a view of "god" that is ever so slightly wrong is more demonic than one that is radically different, because it makes it all the more easier for the faithful to be misled.

#27 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 05:54 PM

Jews worship a God who is not begotten nor does He beget. Does that mean that the God of the Old Testament is the not the God of the Church? Or are we to leap off into the lunacy of StormFront and similar organizations and claim that the modern Jewish religion (and modern Jewish people) are not of the Hebrews of the Old Testament but are, instead, invented by and descended of "Tatar tribesmen" or "Turkiks" or some other such fantastic rationalization. Are we to leap headlong into Marcionism?

#28 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 06:02 PM

Folks, all we are getting here is various personal opinions, very little that is "concrete" and certainly not much from Patristics, except I would say that St. John of Damascus is much closer to Bryan than several other posters so far.

Some of these "distinctions" indeed seem like strained gnats (Matt 23:24). How about we stick to the Patristics?

Just a thought.

Herman the sometimes thoughtful Pooh

#29 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 06:02 PM

On second thoughts Herman is right so I will not go into what I did go into.

However one point,

Jews worship a God who is not begotten nor does He beget. Does that mean that the God of the Old Testament is the not the God of the Church?

Since when did Jews mean the same as the Old Testament Church?

#30 Darlene Griffith

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 06:40 PM

To J.K. Amra,

The text you quote from Fr. Seraphim Rose is specifically talking about the Pentecostal movement, not Baptists. The two are quite different.

#31 Jake A.

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 08:07 PM

To J.K. Amra,

The text you quote from Fr. Seraphim Rose is specifically talking about the Pentecostal movement, not Baptists. The two are quite different.


You'll still have to agree that the Baptist denominations are a charismatic denomination.

#32 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 05 April 2011 - 10:03 PM

No, we do not have to agree to that at all. Most Baptist denominations are not part of the "charismatic movement". But thanks for playing!

#33 Jake A.

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:18 AM

Baptists isn't a charisma based denomination? You've got to be kidding me, just show up at one of their services, yes its charismatic..

#34 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 01:32 AM

I used to be Southern Baptist, most of my family on my father's side is Southern Baptist. No they are not "charismatic" in the "Pentecostal" sense. I think you are confused. Seriously.

#35 Father David Moser

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 02:09 AM

Baptists isn't a charisma based denomination? You've got to be kidding me, just show up at one of their services, yes its charismatic..


It depends very much on just what kind of "Baptist" you mean. There are Baptists that are as formal and straightlaced as the strictest fundamentalist denomination and there are Baptists that are as loose and "charismatic" as an Assembly of God or Pentecostal meeting. I can tell you that the Baptist congregation (GARBC) that my wife grew up in was about as far from charismatic as you can get in protestant circles. I would guess that J.K. has experience with a very particular kind of Baptist that is on the "charismatic" end of the spectrum.

Fr David

#36 Rick H.

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 10:27 AM

I spent many years as a Baptist and I have spent many years at an Independent Baptist Bible College and a Southern Baptist Seminary. If I am familiar with anything, I am very familiar with the different kinds of Baptist churches.

There are different kinds of Baptist's as Father David says, however, it is an ignorant statement to equate Baptist churches with the charismatic movement.

One might as well try to categorize and dismiss Eastern Orthodoxy as being part of the charismatic chaos.

One might as well start a thread, "Is the God of the Greek Orthodox the same as the God of the Russian Orthodox?"

#37 Sacha

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 03:57 PM


One might as well start a thread, "Is the God of the Greek Orthodox the same as the God of the Russian Orthodox?"


Based on some of the discussions we've had here on atonement, toll houses etc, I believe this is a legitimate question.

#38 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 06 April 2011 - 05:27 PM

On second thoughts Herman is right so I will not go into what I did go into.

However one point,
Since when did Jews mean the same as the Old Testament Church?


Since when did it not, except in the eyes of the "Christian Identity" movement and their spiritual heirs?

#39 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:19 AM

Since you seem to be using the word Jew to mean modern Judaism which is a sect from the Pharisees.

#40 Donna Rail

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:49 PM

Since you seem to be using the word Jew to mean modern Judaism which is a sect from the Pharisees.


Oh, dear... :(




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