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Is the God of Baptists the same as the God of Orthodox Christians?


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#41 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 08:50 PM

Why is it oh dear?

#42 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 07 April 2011 - 11:06 PM

I fear we are getting very much into semantics here.

I will confess here and now that I happen to be very anti-semantic and I am not ashamed to say it.

Herman the anti-semantic Pooh

#43 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 07:35 PM

Since you seem to be using the word Jew to mean modern Judaism which is a sect from the Pharisees.


You do realize that you're just going along the Christian Identity party line, here...

#44 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 07:37 PM

I fear we are getting very much into semantics here.

I will confess here and now that I happen to be very anti-semantic and I am not ashamed to say it.

Herman the anti-semantic Pooh


Semantics is merely the study of meaning. Why be against that? Indeed, applied semantics has been a useful therapeutic tool for aphasic disorders.

#45 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 08:29 PM

Semantics is merely the study of meaning. Why be against that? Indeed, applied semantics has been a useful therapeutic tool for aphasic disorders.


QED. Because it often becomes a po-TAY-to/po-TAH-to sort of thing. I insist the meaning is THIS and you insist the meaning is THAT and of course we are BOTH correct depending on the CONTEXT, or perhaps one of us is being overly specific or the other overly general and we can go around and around about that as well, and with much ado and sound and fury accomplish absolutely nothing (but I guess at least the journey was fun, depending on your definition of fun ... oh no, here we go again!)

Herman the pedantic Pooh

Edited by Herman Blaydoe, 24 January 2012 - 12:44 AM.


#46 Xenia Moos

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Posted 14 April 2011 - 11:02 PM

I think Islam is a separate case because I believe that a demon gave Mohammad the Koran and that Muslims pray to this demon to this day. Jews and non-Orthodox Christians at least descend from people who have the right God but the teachings have been perverted over time. The Islamic "holy" book is the product of demons but the Jewish and Christian Holy Book comes from God. So IMO, it's a case of one group (Muslims) having the wrong god from the get-go and the Jews and Christians having the right God from the get-go but some, over time, developed false ideas about Him.

#47 Mark Harris

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 06:47 AM

There is and can be only one God. The debate is like the flat earth / spherical earth debate - there are those that believe it is flat becuause of the way they see the world and those that understand it in a different way and know that it must be a sphere. However there is only one truth about what the earth is no matter how many different ideas about it man can come up with. Deviations from the truth are either deliberate or simply misguided untruths.

#48 Rick H.

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 12:03 PM

Well said Mark. To make anything more of the question of this thread is to offer an example of a platitude viz. 'a flat, dull, or trite remark, especially one uttered as if it were fresh or profound.' Yes, deliberate or misguided but either way a deviation.

#49 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 12:17 PM

You do realize that you're just going along the Christian Identity party line, here...

I don't know much about this Christian Identity thing. My point is this, The Prophets prophesied about the coming of our Great God and Saviour Jesus Christ. Right? Modern Judaism rejects Christ. Right? So how can they be the same religion.

O.K. I have re-read my other post and I think I know what you are getting at I did not mean that the term Jew can not be used to mean an adherent of Judaism as that is how it is used. What I meant was if you are using the word Jew to mean modern Judaism that was not the faith of the righteous of the Old Testament so you can not use it to mean the faith of the Old Testament without causing confusion.

Edited by Daniel R., 15 April 2011 - 01:06 PM.


#50 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 04:04 PM

I think Islam is a separate case because I believe that a demon gave Mohammad the Koran and that Muslims pray to this demon to this day. Jews and non-Orthodox Christians at least descend from people who have the right God but the teachings have been perverted over time. The Islamic "holy" book is the product of demons but the Jewish and Christian Holy Book comes from God. So IMO, it's a case of one group (Muslims) having the wrong god from the get-go and the Jews and Christians having the right God from the get-go but some, over time, developed false ideas about Him.


But what is the origin of those false ideas? Can we not say that Calvin's Institutes was inspired by a demon, and that demon is now what is worshiped by Calvinists? Where do we draw the line as to who worships God and who worships a being masquerading as God? If the Muslims were misled by a demon via the Quran, why not the Baptists misled by a demon via "The Character of the Beast" and "The False Constitution of the Church" (two seminal Baptist/proto-Baptist works)? They may have started under God, but then they strayed and became vulnerable to demonic influence. Why one group and not another?

#51 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 15 April 2011 - 04:18 PM

I think the thing is yes all non-Orthodox are mislead to some extent. But say Calvin or Luther seeing the mass corruption at the Roman Catholic church tried to "fix" it and throw the baby out with the bath water as they say.

Muhammad on the other hand made his own religion a good view of which can be found here http://orthodoxinfo....john_islam.aspx

#52 Paul DeBaufer

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 01:53 PM

I participate in a discussion group that is Wesleyan in tradition and oft there will be Reformed/Calvinist participants. There has been an on-going discussion from one of the Reformed/Calvinists and one of the Wesleyans as to whether or not they worship the same God. To me IF I had to worship the God of the Synod of Dordt, of TULIP Calvinism I would not be a Christian. Maybe I should more rightly say that perception of who God is, as that is not the God I find in the Bible.

#53 Rick H.

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 03:47 PM

Maybe I should more rightly say that perception of who God is . . .


This is really the point Paul, and I guess I am just repeating myself over in different ways, there are different perceptions but one God.

#54 Dennis Justison

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 05:01 PM

My God, your God, their God, whose God?
What does God say? That's what I say.
I can't say who God is anyway
Because thank God, God is beyond our ways.

#55 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 05:14 PM

But God is the Lord and has revealed Himself to us. God is knowable to us. Orthodoxy is all about becoming open to that revelation.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain.

Herman the Pooh

#56 J.D. Duttweiler

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 05:35 PM

I participate in a discussion group that is Wesleyan in tradition and oft there will be Reformed/Calvinist participants. There has been an on-going discussion from one of the Reformed/Calvinists and one of the Wesleyans as to whether or not they worship the same God. To me IF I had to worship the God of the Synod of Dordt, of TULIP Calvinism I would not be a Christian. Maybe I should more rightly say that perception of who God is, as that is not the God I find in the Bible.

I had this exact same view, and wrote it more than a few times, on the same types of forums. The God revealed in Scriptures and in the experiences and writings of the Saints and Fathers of the Church is not the God as described in the findings of the Synod of Dort (nor, to be honest, the Remonstrance either). There is a letter written by the Patriarch of Constantinople, IIRC, to either Calvinists or Lutherans. I can't find a link to it right now, but perhaps others have it at hand.

#57 Dennis Justison

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 05:57 PM

Yes, this is true Herman. Yet, isn't He beyond us too? I mean, on one hand He is knowable, yet in the same instance, He is beyond the mind. If we try to become too precise, we end up putting Him into a box, and usually a quite small one as I survey the Christian landscape. I see my biological father. I compare myself with my brother. Did we really have the same father? Did we live in the same house? We certainly did, although many folks wouldn't believe it. To me, that's a little like the question of "Do they worship the same God as we do?" When it comes to Christian truth, we have to stick with the Fathers and the Orthodox Church does a wonderful job in this. Yet, now and continuing throughout all eternity, we will grow in our love and knowedge of the Lord, which is a pretty cool thought. Peace.

#58 Sacha

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 06:24 PM

But what is the origin of those false ideas? Can we not say that Calvin's Institutes was inspired by a demon, and that demon is now what is worshiped by Calvinists? Where do we draw the line as to who worships God and who worships a being masquerading as God? If the Muslims were misled by a demon via the Quran, why not the Baptists misled by a demon via "The Character of the Beast" and "The False Constitution of the Church" (two seminal Baptist/proto-Baptist works)? They may have started under God, but then they strayed and became vulnerable to demonic influence. Why one group and not another?


Bryan,

There are marked differences between entire sections of the Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox. Take those who believe in the toll house idea on one hand, and those who don't on the other. Do they worship the same God?

#59 Paul Fowler

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 09:41 PM

Bryan,

There are marked differences between entire sections of the Russian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox. Take those who believe in the toll house idea on one hand, and those who don't on the other. Do they worship the same God?


It seems to me (and I may well be wrong) that there is big difference between peripheral ideas such as toll houses and central ideas such as who God is or which God we serve.

The Koran gives the Moslem concept of God and reading both it and the Bible, no one could confuse the Islamic Allah with the Christian God. Similarly, it seems to me that the Jewish concept of God ("Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One God") is very different from the Christian understanding of the Trinity. Moving on from that, the Nicene Creed-The Symbol of Faith-sums up the Christian view, including the one that the Father is the Origin of the Son AND the Holy Spirit. The West have altered that by adding the Filioque which makes the Father [U]AND[U] the Son the Origin of the Holy Spirit, so arguably any Western Christian group which openly adheres to the Western form of the Creed could legitimately be desribed as worshipping another God from the One we Orthodox worship

#60 Mark Harris

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Posted 16 April 2011 - 11:15 PM

It seems to me (and I may well be wrong) that there is big difference between peripheral ideas such as toll houses and central ideas such as who God is or which God we serve.

The Koran gives the Moslem concept of God and reading both it and the Bible, no one could confuse the Islamic Allah with the Christian God. Similarly, it seems to me that the Jewish concept of God ("Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One God") is very different from the Christian understanding of the Trinity. Moving on from that, the Nicene Creed-The Symbol of Faith-sums up the Christian view, including the one that the Father is the Origin of the Son AND the Holy Spirit. The West have altered that by adding the Filioque which makes the Father [U]AND[U] the Son the Origin of the Holy Spirit, so arguably any Western Christian group which openly adheres to the Western form of the Creed could legitimately be desribed as worshipping another God from the One we Orthodox worship

Are you suggesting there is more than one God?




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