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Differences of passions between genders


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#41 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 03:48 PM

It was just a general question and a general discussion. The original was not that specific if you read back on it, but that is sort of how the discussion went. Understanding differences seems worthwhile.

Herman

#42 Nina

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Posted 28 April 2011 - 04:15 PM

As someone who is very "good" at thoroughly unedifying argument, I wonder how it is edifying to compile a "Passions scorecard" of one sex vs. the other. Why is it important to "prove" that men are more prone to entertaining lust or women more prone to entertaining envy?

Just wondering?


I have a male friend who has told me he felt envy for everyone and everything. Poor thing ... he was so humble about it and I think because of that God has released him from this passion. So not always only women feel envy, and not always only men feel lust (as Father Raphael makes the point above it depends on the person)... however now that I think of it in regards to matters of lust why did God say: "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife." hmmmm

#43 Paul Cowan

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 02:12 AM

Now why was Bathsheba bathing naked on her roof top again?

We can point fingers all day long.

#44 Nina

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Posted 29 April 2011 - 04:07 AM

We can point fingers all day long.


Oh, I did not mean this as finger pointing dear Paul. I was just thinking about the 10 commandments if those are gender specified and this kind of it is... so I guess the point made above by Fr. is right since even God did specify it in the Commandments.

Now why was Bathsheba bathing naked on her roof top again?


Because she did not have draining system installed inside her house? lol

#45 Bill Schwan

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 02:30 AM

The rooftop was probably the most private part of the house, given the average height of Semetic folk. But if your house isn't the tallest one in town, you run the risk of being observed by somone with a higher vantage point. Had Bathsheba noticed David walking the parapet at a specific time and planned accordingly? Given her later dealings with David's other kids in the line of succession, I think she might have been calculating enough to have had something in mind other than cleanliness.

#46 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 01:51 AM

Someone sent me a feedback comment that reminded me of more evidence that shows that men are in general more lustful than women: Pornography. I think this is very self-explanatory, so I shall leave it at that. If someone demands statistics, though, I will come back and give you statistics.

I comment for the sake of posterity because this is an old thread.  50 Shades of Grey is "female porn" and has hit the 100 Million copies mark in 2014.  That is only one specific example, but there are others that cater to female fantasies like Twilight.  Romance novels are largely erotica (such as Harlequin novels) and have been selling well for a century now.

 

Men tend to be attracted to visual images, while women are more attracted to an intangible idea.  Both sexes are prone to sexual sin; the difference is that in many of our modern societies, the vices of the female are treated as more innocent.



#47 Olga

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 03:06 AM

Men tend to be attracted to visual images, while women are more attracted to an intangible idea.  Both sexes are prone to sexual sin; the difference is that in many of our modern societies, the vices of the female are treated as more innocent.

 

Despite what Hollywood or hack novelists might put out, the reverse is true. In real life, even in "modern western societies", women are still stigmatised far more frequently for sexual sins than men.



#48 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 03:45 AM

Despite what Hollywood or hack novelists might put out, the reverse is true. In real life, even in "modern western societies", women are still stigmatised far more frequently for sexual sins than men.

 

 

The above statement is not fact, it is opinion.  It also twisted my words, which referred to vices and not sins per se.

 

So, prove it.



#49 Olga

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 06:07 AM

Your statement is just as much opinion as mine, Seraphim.

 

 It also twisted my words, which referred to vices and not sins per se.

 

A dictionary definition of vice:

 

: bad or immoral behavior or habits

: a moral flaw or weakness

 

Is not sinful behaviour also described by these terms?



#50 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 03:57 PM

I suggest that we cannot speak of sexual sins collectively. There is a scale of sins with the most serious at the high end and the least serious at the low end (though I know sins are sins and we must not trivialize any). Men are far more likely to commit rape, and are more likely to engage in casual sex frequently than women. Traditionally, men would have been more likely to engage in sexual sins (from an Orthodox point of view) than women in the middle and lower end of the scale. Since the 1960s, the traditional 'gap' between men and women in the lower end and middle of the scale has narrowed considerably, whilst there has been some narrowing of the gap towards the higher end (promiscuity) as a result of the sexualisation of society though the media and the internet. I cannot agree that the sexual sins of women are perceived to be more innocent; a promiscuous man is seen as a lad having a good time, sowing his wild oats. A promiscuous woman is very likely to gain a reputation as a slut and to be trolled on social web sites.



#51 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 06:55 PM

A dictionary definition of vice:
 
: bad or immoral behavior or habits
: a moral flaw or weakness
 
Is not sinful behaviour also described by these terms?

Ah, I see that there is a misunderstanding in terms.  By vice, I specifically meant the definition "Moral fault or defect (without implication of serious wrongdoing); a flaw in character or conduct" and "A fault, defect, blemish or imperfection, in action or procedure or in the constitution of a thing." (Oxford English Dictionary)
 
The reality is that from a young age, females are encouraged to have a vivid fantasy life in which they role play being pursued by a male, e.g., being a princess and a prince comes to marry them, take them into a life of luxury and ease where they are the center of attention.  Sexually mature females typically expect a male to meet their needs for income, intimate conversation, affection, and domestic support (housework and child rearing), although there is variation among individuals.  I have yet to observe a modern society where that which I just described is portrayed in a negative light on any level.  When these expectations are examined as the vices they are, specifically imperfections in action and expectation, they are certainly considered innocent in contrast to the vices of males (largely a desire to copulate, or "sew their wild oats").
 
One can easily point to so-called "no-fault divorce" rates in which the large majority are initiated by women and economically enslave men.  This meets with approval within the same modern societies (and I have even seen approval within the Orthodox Church, albeit less enthusiastic).  Take the divorce rate in the US, which is over 50% for first marriages.  Over 70% of them are initiated by women.  While I am certain that it happens, within the Orthodox Church I have never personally observed an Orthodox male who initiated a divorce; in contrast, I have observed a plethora of Orthodox females who have done so.  The reality is that divorce is another vice that is flaw in conduct regarding sex/the sexes that is far more common among females.
 
Other vices include wearing makeup, "sexy hair", revealing clothing, and mannerisms.  Females in modern societies participate in all of these, which are viewed as "innocent" when contrasted to the males quest for copulation.
 
Even the Apostle explains clearly:

For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
 
And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. (Epistle of Paul to the Romans)

Homosexuality, the rise and "acceptance" of which is a direct consequence of the feminization of modern cultures.  While homosexuality has existed throughout time, it cannot possibly be accepted and promoted to the status of a Christian marriage within a society unless women first have exchanged their natural function for that which is unnatural.  And the purple prose that Paul uses to describe the act of penetration per anum is very graphic: receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.  He certainly is not sugar coating it.
 
So, to bring my comments and address the original post:

Is it generally accepted that men (in general) have more intense passions than women?

Are there only certain passions in men that are generally more intense than in women, for example "lust" or "fornication"?

I realize that there are always exceptions, and obviously a passionate woman would have more passions than a dispassionate man. I'm just asking about what is generally accepted by the Fathers (and by science, if need be).

Thank you for your answers.

No, it is not generally accepted that men have more intense passions than women. The behaviors described by the Apostle Paul in the previous quote apply to both sexes. While males initiate sexual crimes more often than females, females initiate divorce far more often than males (most often over issues regarding sex and/or money). Both phenomena are sin.



#52 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 07:16 PM

Broad brush assertions are being made without any grounds for them.  What evidence can be provided that women initiate divorce more often than men? And are we talking about the general population or Orthodox couples? Reasons for divorce vary from country to country: in England, money matters are the more common reason for divorce (according to divorce lawyers I know). In Russia, the husband's adultery is the more usual reason (from what I hear from my Russian friends). In England, nearly half of couples cohabit without marrying anyway. If we restrict ourselves to Orthodox married couples in our respective countries, the statistics must surely be different from those of the general populations in those countries as may be the reasons for divorce.



#53 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 07:16 PM

I suggest that we cannot speak of sexual sins collectively.

What you suggest is unclear.  Do you mean not speak of stereotypes/whole groups, but only of individuals?  Or do you mean sexual sins individually, as in wearing revealing clothing or makeup vs. rape?

 

Traditionally, men would have been more likely to engage in sexual sins (from an Orthodox point of view) than women in the middle and lower end of the scale. Since the 1960s, the traditional 'gap' between men and women in the lower end and middle of the scale has narrowed considerably, whilst there has been some narrowing of the gap towards the higher end (promiscuity) as a result of the sexualisation of society though the media and the internet. I cannot agree that the sexual sins of women are perceived to be more innocent; a promiscuous man is seen as a lad having a good time, sowing his wild oats. A promiscuous woman is very likely to gain a reputation as a slut and to be trolled on social web sites.

The "oldest profession" in the world is prostitution.  Male prostitutes have just as negative a reputation as female prostitutes, perhaps even more so.

 

I sense that in this discussion, there is a huge disconnect in what constitutes sexual sin.  There seems to be an implicit focus only on actual physical sexual contact that satisfies lust in the perpetrator.  Am I understanding this correctly?  If so, the necessarily the male would be more prone to such since the male is the initiator and active participant by God's design and the female is the receiver and passive participant by God's design.  Such a narrow view will necessarily be biased.

 

In contrast, I am pointing out that sexual sin is a much broader category.  Sexual sin would, be the very term, be "sin that relates to differences in the sexes" which encompasses many phenomena, not the least of which is sins committed against the male by the female.  Perhaps the most potent are adultery and divorce.  It also includes, but is not limited to: disloyalty by the female (commonly, wives who disrespect their husbands, especially in public); unilateral action and demands of a female and pressure for a male to provide for her lusts of the flesh (comfort, financial security, and pleasurable social activities); and the implicit threat of divorce if the female is in any way dissatisfied with the marriage/arrangement.

 

To address the last statement directly: is a divorced female more likely than a divorced male to gain a reputation as a slut, especially within the Church?

 

Incidentally, I have yet to see a male dress provocatively in Church services.  I have seen females do so so many times that I would not even venture to count.  And they do so shamelessly, in opposition to the teachings of the Fathers.



#54 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 07:26 PM

What I said in post #50 was based on an admittedly cursory reading of the relevant specialist academic literature. Whilst data is not at hand, I would suggest that it is a reasonable inference that the behaviour of married Orthodox couples in the diaspora is different from  that of the general population in countries of the diaspora.


Edited by Reader Andreas, 30 November 2014 - 07:37 PM.


#55 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 07:43 PM

Broad brush assertions are being made without any grounds for them.  What evidence can be provided that women initiate divorce more often than men? And are we talking about the general population or Orthodox couples?

The original post did not distinguish between the general population and Orthodox couples.  The original post was a broad brush question and implicitly welcomes broad brush answers.  I did not mean to be contributing out of context, nor distorting anything.
 
Evidence for initiation of divorce by women can easily be found by finding statistics in many modern societies.  Would it really make a difference if I were to provide statistics?  I question if anyone really calls into question that females initiate divorce more than males in modern societies.
 
I think for the sake of this thread, I have implicit assumptions.  I can readily identify 3 that I have made:

  1. That contributors are open the the ideas of others, even if they don't agree
  2. Moderators will provide more consideration for opposing views, given that they are in a "power position" to delete posts at will
  3. Discussions on social issues within the Church will be discussed primarily from within the societies that are primarily English speaking, since this forum is in English.  That would include I suppose the US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa. 

I personally am interested in comments from others on the forum who can provide a point of view that is outside of the White Anglo Saxon Protestant (WASP) purview, namely Greeks, Romanians, and multiple Slavic cultures who may very well have a better handle on the issues of a sexuality and the sexes.  If I have made any gross errors in my assumptions, please help me understand better.
 

What I said in post #50 was based on an admittedly cursory reading of the relevant specialist academic literature. Whilst data is not at hand, I would suggest that it is a reasonable inference that the behaviour of married Orthodox couples in the diaspora is different from the that of the general population in countries of the diaspora.

I concur, the behavior of married couples in the diaspora is apparently very different from what I can gather.  So then, I hope that others might be able to give input to illuminate what is wrong in the diaspora.  What I have read from some of the Greek women on this forum in particular is very fascinating and encouraging.

 

At the risk of being too frank, it appears that in general, females in Greece are much more desirable as wives than women in the US, UK, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa when it comes to issues of sex/the sexes.  Granted, that is a generalization, and I offer it as such.  However, I have 4 sons, so providing them advice on how to find a good wife is my responsibility as their father.  If such advice could include "study abroad in Greece because there you are more likely to find a good wife" then so be it!



#56 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 07:51 PM

Given the behaviour of some men in Greece (abortion used as birth control because condoms are 'unmanly') and Russia (very prone to adultery) it is not surprising that Greek or Russian women would prefer an American or English husband if they could but find one. To digress, my brother lives in France. The married men he knows think having a mistress is normal. French women can hardly believe that my brother thinks this is appalling as most Englishmen would. An English husband is very highly prized by French women.



#57 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 07:58 PM

Given the behaviour of some men in Greece (abortion used as birth control because condoms are 'unmanly') and Russia (very prone to adultery) it is not surprising that Greek or Russian women would prefer an American or English husband if they could but find one. To digress, my brother lives in France. The married men he knows think having a mistress is normal. French women can hardly believe that my brother thinks this is appalling as most Englishmen would. An English husband is very highly prized by French women.

 

You are blowin' my mind Andreas!  It reminds me of the passage in the book of Ecclesiastes:

 I tested all this with wisdom, and I said, “I will be wise,” but it was far from me. What has been is remote and exceedingly mysterious. Who can discover it? I directed my mind to know, to investigate and to seek wisdom and an explanation, and to know the evil of folly and the foolishness of madness. And I discovered more bitter than death the woman whose heart is snares and nets, whose hands are chains. One who is pleasing to God will escape from her, but the sinner will be captured by her.
 
"Behold, I have discovered this," says the Preacher, "adding one thing to another to find an explanation, which I am still seeking but have not found. I have found one man among a thousand, but I have not found a woman among all these. Behold, I have found only this, that God made men upright, but they have sought out many devices."


#58 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 09:46 PM

Not sure how that passage relates to men behaving likes beasts in the field.

 

PS Probably an insult to animals.


Edited by Reader Andreas, 30 November 2014 - 09:47 PM.


#59 Seraphim of the Midwest

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 10:23 PM

I hope when you refer to "men" you mean mankind in your last comment.  Somehow I don't think so.



#60 Rdr Andreas

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Posted 30 November 2014 - 11:40 PM

I meant males. Again to digress, my brother asked a neighbour why he had a mistress.

'I wouldn't do with my wife what I do with my mistress! What kind of a man do you think I am?'






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