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Orthodox Christian women wearing makeup


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#21 Nina

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:12 AM

Eeeewweeezz!!!!!!! That's supposed to make you holy? That just shows what religious fanaticism can do to a person.


Leave the poor guy alone to shower as he pleases. What is wrong with you people? LOL Women who wear make up are not good, monastics who shower with covering on are not good. Whatever is done you criticize. No wonder Christ was so bitter with such attitudes. Geee!

This is one of the most horrible saint legends I have read,

It is NOT a legend. The book was written by Elder Paisios for his spiritual Elder who was Saint Arsenios. If you beleived in the Holy Spirit you would have known what that means.

according to the version I read,

You did? Why are you reading them when you do not beleive them? Ok ok I know. For the same reason you come here :) because you are drawn to God and want to beleive, but are fighting the last rebellious fight before giving up and surrendering to God. :)

if I'm thinking of the right saint, the woman refused to change her headscarf and the guy told her her children would die. She refused to listen to him, and then came back repentant after they did die. Sheesh. That's good news for ya.

See you judge him harshly and not fairly (you do not have to beleive in God but it does not mean you have to be unfair in life). Just leave the poor Saint alone. (Although he is not poor and the Elder above is not poor too. They are very rich in God but that is just an expression). The woman had to obey to him since he was her spiritual father and he was the spiritual father of the entire village. She did not obey like Adam and Eve. When we do not obey to our spiritual father there are consequences. When she repented and asked forgiveness he blessed her.

Here is what happened as told by Elder Paisios in the book about Saint Arsenios:

"When Osia Karamouratidou was newly-married, she used to wear a gaudy head-scarf from Smyrna. Father Arsenios told her off about this on more than one occasion, saying that she should get rid of it and dress modestly, like all the other women in Farasa, but she took no notice.

One day, when he saw that she was wearing it again, he told her with no little severity:

"I do not want Frankish sickness in Farasa. If you do not behave, I am telling you now that all the children you have, as soon as they are baptized, will pass away like little angels, and you won't have any joy of any of them."

Unfortunately, she would still not do as she was told, not until she had lost two little angels, and then she threw away the showy scarf and went to Father Arsenios and asked for forgiveness. When he had forgiven her, he told her:

"Go now with Christ's blessing, and the first child you have will be a boy, and we'll call him Arsenios. And the second will be a girl and we'll call her Irene." And that is what happened." pp.99-100 from the book 'Saint Arsenios of Cappadocia'

Yeah, the Amish. They have restrictions of their own. Like for instance: when a man marries, he must grow a beard like a biblical patriarch. But he must shave the mustache. Why in blazes? Because, 200 years ago, mustaches were popular in the military, and they are pacifists. I obviously need not explain how ridiculous, pointless and illogical a restriction this is. Today, mustaches and the military have nothing to do with each other. So how come the Amish haven't banned high and tight haircuts, that at least would make some sense.

So why can't I admire their way of life and how they obey to their Bible and how they keep the Sunday for God and how nice and well mannered they are? Not only Amish, but even pagans, or atheists who lived and kept things so neat and clean and worked hard, I would admire them. They care for themselves, community, the environment and are very nice, hard-working people. And above all they love God and show it with their manner of life.

#22 Alice

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 12:04 PM

Since we are in the world, sometimes we need to conform a bit to the world to assimilate into society. I do not think there is anything wrong with dying one's hair (as Angie made it sound like it was the most sinful thing), wearing makeup and looking nice. Infact, in many areas, if you do not conform like this, you will not get a good job and people will think you are depressed and have no spirit.
Yes, I love makeover shows and I see how the women feel so much better about themselves after. They say that they just didn't know how to look nice so they gave up on themselves.
Call me a sinner if you like...but I am not ashamed *in the least* of wearing makeup.
And the makeup that men seem to be discussing here which they do not like is the type that women who do not know how to apply it wear, or who over apply it wear. Maybe I am just a 'city slicker' (Athens and NYC), but that is the way of all cities and I am in the company of priest's wives and daughters.
We do not all need to live like monastics to be pious. We are all different and we need to accept that. :-)

#23 Michael Albert

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 12:12 PM

Not judging here, but, if you look at our icons eg St Rafael, St Nicholas, St Irene - St Irene wears no make up, actually none of our female Orthodox Saints wear any make up and look how beautiful they look. Honestly, if you compare someone that has make up to someone who has no make up, then the no make up always looks better. :)


I agree with this 100%!

#24 Christina M.

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 12:25 PM

Do you guys get the feeling that we had this exact same discussiion just last week? I think we did, but I don't remember which thread it was in.

I just wanted to say that I agree with Alice that sometimes makeup is required for our jobs. It would be silly to suggest, for example, that an Orthodox news reporter should not wear makeup.

Alice - I think that there are regional differences in the way women wear makeup. Like you said, maybe the big cities are diifferent, but I've seen that in more rural areas sometimes women wear a rediculous amount of makeup. I feel like telling them: "Didn't you ever look at yourself in the mirror after you put on your makeup, to see that you look like a clown now?" But I think they get used to these extremes and it becomes a part of them.

#25 Alice

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 12:43 PM

Do you guys get the feeling that we had this exact same discussiion just last week? I think we did, but I don't remember which thread it was in.

I just wanted to say that I agree with Alice that sometimes makeup is required for our jobs. It would be silly to suggest, for example, that an Orthodox news reporter should not wear makeup.

Alice - I think that there are regional differences in the way women wear makeup. Like you said, maybe the big cities are diifferent, but I've seen that in more rural areas sometimes women wear a rediculous amount of makeup. I feel like telling them: "Didn't you ever look at yourself in the mirror after you put on your makeup, to see that you look like a clown now?" But I think they get used to these extremes and it becomes a part of them.


I agree Christina, some women do not know what they are doing and look ridiculous. Just as no makeup will not get you a job in the big city, a ridiculous, and unnatural amount of makeup will also not get you the job!

#26 Mary Ann H.

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:07 PM

Our Saints of course do not wear make up (although there are many who used to wear it like Saint Pelagia we celebrate today and who was reformed). But who said I am a Saint?


Dear Nina, I don't want to be a pedant, but I have just learned that there are several Saint Pelagias and the Saint Pelagia of Tarsus that we celebrate today was a virgin martyr, not a reformed courtesan like Saint Pelagia of Antioch, whose feast day is in October.

#27 Cyprian (Humphrey)

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:08 PM

I am not attacking him, yes, he is free to do so, I am just saying that he is being fanatical and in my opinion at least, doing himself harm by thinking he needs to have poor hygine habits to please his god (I wonder how he smells. Perhaps someone within smelling distance of him would share my view).



Perhaps someone in smelling distance of him would not share your view. My personal experience would have to confirm your opinion as rubbish. I've met a novice, who upon returning from the fields, was literally covered in sweat (this was in Arizona, in August, BTW), and salt-stains were quite noticable on his cassock. Now, I've encountered plenty of people in that condition (especially when I was in the Army), and I know what they smell like. Did I smell that, as he walked passed me, indoors where there was no breeze to take any odour away? Nope. I smelled roses. I kid you not.

Oh, and *hygeine*.

What I want is a chance to show you people how you are (in my opinion) deluding yourselves and to invite you to reconsider your beliefs


Which is not what this forum is for. Many times you've been asked to provide proof that God does not exist. The fact that you have yet to do so suggests (to me at least) that you cannot do so. Are you entirely sure that you're not the one deluded?

#28 Michael Albert

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:19 PM

Did I smell that, as he walked passed me, indoors where there was no breeze to take any odour away? Nope. I smelled roses. I kid you not.


Ah yes Father! There are many accounts of rose scented ascetics which are reminiscent of your experience.

#29 Etsi JC Brigid W.

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:25 PM

I have to say that I WISH someone had told me the lipstick rule a long time ago. I only recently heard about it. I knew to blot before venerating the icons (though most of ours have glass over them). I did not know to not have lipstick on when receiving communion! My mother was anti-makeup, but I grew up in a culture where you did not leave the house without at least lipgloss on! I wear makeup to church because there are times where I look sick if I don't due to certain health issues. That draws more attention than modestly and lightly put makeup.

#30 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:28 PM

If someone wants to wear makeup fine. If you want to wear perfume or cologne, fine and dandy but do be conservative in its use and considerate of the people around you who may well be extra sensitive to the scent. We all might want to be aware that more and more people are developing sensitivities due to chemical over-exposure and you may join our ranks in the not-to-distant future.

The most appropriate adornment for a Christian is modesty, and that is not just my opinion and I don't think it is a judgement.

Herman the hopefully not-too-smelly Pooh

#31 Nina

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Posted 04 May 2011 - 05:29 PM

Dear Nina, I don't want to be a pedant, but I have just learned that there are several Saint Pelagias and the Saint Pelagia of Tarsus that we celebrate today was a virgin martyr, not a reformed courtesan like Saint Pelagia of Antioch, whose feast day is in October.


Very true dear Mary Ann! Sorry. I had just figured it out this morning since I heard her Apolytikon in Greek and wanted to post the same clarification here. :) Thank you! Sorry about the confusion.

Although since this Saint Pelagia is the Great maybe the other one was named after her and celebrates today too? :)

#32 Angie

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 01:05 AM

Alice,

As you can see in my posts, I dont recall saying it is the worst sin in the world, I am sure their are worst sins out their.

But this is just my opinion, and in the end God will Judge and I will try not too (as hard as it is).

God can see everyone's heart including mine. Sorry if I offended anyone here, but this is my belief, whether it is right or wrong, God only knows.

#33 Alice

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 01:03 PM

Alice,

As you can see in my posts, I dont recall saying it is the worst sin in the world, I am sure their are worst sins out their.

But this is just my opinion, and in the end God will Judge and I will try not too (as hard as it is).

God can see everyone's heart including mine. Sorry if I offended anyone here, but this is my belief, whether it is right or wrong, God only knows.


Dear Angie,

I am not offended! :-)

However, you must know that if it is a sin, there are alot of Orthodox sinners out there.

Do you know that even older women in the most remote Greek villages these days do not allow their hair to be gray but dye it? LOL!! Trust me, if you see them, it is not because of vanity, but because it something that is expected from today's society. My mom in law, didn't wear makeup and was not a vain type at all but she did dye her hair until the day she died in her late 70's, and she was living on a Greek island! It is just something majority of women do these days, like tweezing their eyebrows, etc.

Then again, the problem with women is that we judge those women who are not like us: those who work vs. those who don't; those who homeschool vs. those who don't; those who marry vs. those who don't; those who raise their children this way vs. those who raise their children that way, etc., etc., etc. We can be so critical of other women!! That to me is the biggest sin we women have and the one we should all work on the most! If we are honest, we will all admit that we are or have been guilty of that to some degree in our lives. Everyone wants everyone else to be just like them! Atleast men are not like that.

My friend at church, who is one of the rare women I know that looks really great with grey hair, (and she has it very nicely cut and conditioned), worked at a major woman's magazine for many years in a high position and lost her job a year or so ago with the crisis. Since she was back in the job market, she said that she had to seriously consider dying her hair because being middle aged, almost no one will hire you, and looking it makes it even worse. That is the unfortunate reality of today's culture.

Any way, we are all entitled to our opinion. :-)

Some are more fundamentalist than others when it comes to religion and there is nothing wrong with that and that is so commendable, but we must all be careful of the wrong kind of fundamentalism in any religion--because it can breed unholy feelings in the soul and lead to unholy actions and passions justified in the name of religion and God..

Be well dear sister in Christ!
In Christ,
Alice

#34 Michael Albert

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 04:40 PM

Some are more fundamentalist than others when it comes to religion


Fundamentalist? What do you mean?

#35 Kyranna

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 05:25 PM

Everyone,
I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to post all of your helpful replies. There were so many good points made; I feel informed. I was hoping to see a CLEAR single answer but opinions differed from one another. Since there is really no clear answer (and I've searched so much online, too) then I think it must not be an important issue to worry about? I'll keep checking for more posts but for now I feel it is not okay to wear lipstick or perfume in church for good, important reasons but outside of church it is okay to wear makeup modestly as I do, not to seek attention or glory from other people but to look and feel my best while bringing glory to God. My desire to wear makeup may very well change in the future if God places it in my heart to do so. (I expect to change in many more ways) More importantly, I feel convicted to confess and repent of the sin of "judging others" because as some of you posted, that IS the serious sin to work on. Clearly, I was judging the other women at my church who were wearing makeup because of what I read in the pamphlet "Guide to Confession" I got when visiting a monastery. I haven't seen this pamphlet in any Orthodox Church so maybe it's not meant for everyone? I need to pray for an extended life so that I will have time to struggle, learn, grow and improve as much as I possibly can. I have a long way to go in my spiritual life, too. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner!
Thanks again everyone!

Kyranna

#36 Michael Albert

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 06:05 PM

for now I feel it is not okay to wear lipstick or perfume in church for good, important reasons but outside of church it is okay to wear makeup modestly as I do, not to seek attention or glory from other people but to look and feel my best while bringing glory to God.


Bravo! Also it would be beneficial to speak with your Spiritual Father about these kinds of questions.

I haven't seen this pamphlet in any Orthodox Church so maybe it's not meant for everyone?


I have not seen it very often as a pamphlet in the Church. But it is on countless websites for countless Orthodox Churches as a guideline for proper etiquette.

I need to pray for an extended life so that I will have time to struggle, learn, grow and improve as much as I possibly can. I have a long way to go in my spiritual life, too. Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner!


Amen! Christ is Risen!

#37 Christina M.

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 06:29 PM

My desire to wear makeup may very well change in the future if God places it in my heart to do so.

Kyranna, I like what you said here! This is very true.

#38 Nina

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 10:26 PM

My desire to wear makeup may very well change in the future if God places it in my heart to do so. (I expect to change in many more ways)
Kyranna


:) Yes, I have felt that transformation power too. God is merciful and wonderful. :)

What has helped me change in this aspect have been writings of St. Chrysostomos on the subject and also other Saints. One Saint I love, Saint Kosmas Aetolos also has said this:


St. Paraskeve

LET US SAY something about the good earth. St. Paraskeve was a twelve-year-old maiden from a noble house. Left an orphan, she divided up all her possessions among the poor, and with these she purchased paradise. In place of cosmetics, she wore tears, remembering tier sins. In place of earrings, she kept her ears open to hear the sacred Scriptures. In place of a necklace, she fasted often, which made her neck shine like the sun. In place of rings, she acquired calluses on her fingers from the many prostrations she made. In place of a golden belt, she had her virginity which she guarded all her life. In place of a dress, she was covered by modesty and fear of God. This is how the saint decked herself. If there is any maiden who wishes to adorn herself, let her consider what this saint did and let her do the same if she wishes to be saved.

In this way, brethren, St. Paraskeve acquired learning and became very wise. Because of her purity, God found her worthy to perform miracles. She cured the blind, the deaf she raised the dead.

Two Jews, sons of the devil, seeing the saint perform miracles, envied her and betrayed her to King Antoninus as Christian. So the King summoned her and asked her to deny Christ and to worship the gods and she would become queen.
The saint replied: "I am not foolish like you to deny my Christ and to go to the devil; to leave life and go to death. you leave the darkness and come to the light." you hear, my brethren, how outspoken a young girl a king?

Whoever has Christ in his heart fears nothing in the world. If we too wish not to fear either people or demons, let us have God in our hearts.

King said to the saint: "I'll give you three days to obey; if you don't you'll be put to death."
The saint replied: "O King, what you wish to do in three days time, do it now, for I will not deny my Christ."
The King then ordered a big fire to be lighted and over it was placed, filled with tar and sulfur. Seeing the pot, the saint rejoiced, for she was to depart from this false world and to go to that which is real and eternal.
The King ordered the saint to be put into the pot to be boiled. The saint made the sign of the Cross and got in the pot. The king waited two, three hours and seeing she was not being boiled, he said: "Paraskeve, why aren't you burning?"
The saint said: "Because Christ cooled the water and I don't burn."
The King replied: "Sprinkle me with the water so I can see whether it burns or not."

The saint took some water in her two hands and threw it, into his face, and immediately behold the miracle - he became 'blind and his face was flayed. The King then shouted: "Great is the God of the Christians. In him I also believe. Come Out and baptize me."

The saint got out and baptized him and his entire kingdom. 'Later another king beheaded her and she went to paradise to rejoice forever. This woman yielded a hundred, according to the Lord's word.


Link

#39 Angie

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Posted 05 May 2011 - 10:39 PM

Thanks Alice :)

However, it is true we must not judge others, which is a struggle in itself.

My example is first my Panagia and our Saints, and I will try with Gods help to live like them. They are my role model.

With Love in Christ
Angela

#40 Marianthy

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Posted 06 May 2011 - 01:57 AM

Dear brothers and sisters in Christ,

I wear pants to church. I wear makeup everyday, although I refrain from wearing lipstick to church. I dye my hair and highlight it. I do my nails and wear frilly feminine things.

I am also a Greek Orthodox woman who loves God deeply, believes in the Resurrection, and talks to Panagia as my mother. But I also watch secular tv shows and spend way too much time on the internet. I pray at least 3 times a day but there are times when I feel lazy to go to liturgy. I get angry at my husband and then I cook up a storm out of guilt.

I am a sinner.

Humbly,
Marianthy




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