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The Holy Orthodox Bible


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#61 Archimandrite Irenei

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 06:31 AM

Dear Mr Morris, you wrote:


This would be nice. I was interested in reading the point and counterpoint on the Greek-to-English. Admittedly, I was bored by some of the debate about the english language, however.



You -- and others -- are most welcome indeed to respond to the issues of the meaning and translation of the Greek, as raised previously in the thread, or as you or others raise additional queries. Once a work is published in some form or another, it enters into the ’public discussion’ and conversations that look closely at its content, style, approach, etc., may be helpful for those considering reading, as well as for those purely interested in some of the issues raised. So you are more than welcome to carry on with discussion, questions, or other issues arising out of the Greek meaning or other matters. This thread is by no means closed or concluded.


INXC, Hieromonk Irenei

#62 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 01:49 PM

Discussing a book's perceived shortcomings is certainly well within the perview of a public forum, regardless of the alledged "bias" of the person making the remarks. If an author chooses to take issue with those comments, he is certainly well within his "rights" to do so. However, those comments, made in a public forum, are "fair game" for further comment as well, whether or not he or she likes or agrees with them. Such is the nature of public discourse on the Internet. Getting all hot and bothered over it is not good for furthering the discussion nor for one's blood pressure and continued health. If one has a problem with criticism, it may be best to avoid the Internet altogether.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain
Herman the asbestos Pooh

#63 Archimandrite Irenei

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 03:22 PM

The best thing in any such discussion (and such discussions are good) is to attempt to remain objective and look in detail and with focus at the actual materials being considered. Defending things 'because they're mine', or accusing others of 'bias' (particularly in an uninformed way, where it does not exist) are chiefly means of personalising commentary, of making it about people and their views, rather than actually looking at the materials themselves. The kinds of issues we've been examining here, however, vis-a-vis the Holy Orthodox Bible translation, are not personal issues: they are specific questions of Greek and English grammar, which stand in their own right, independent of personal questions. In these, I think it is clear (from what I have written above) that what we encounter in the HOB is not an accurately expressive translation of a quite nuanced Greek in the passages I've cited, and -- irrespective of whether other translations might also fail to express the Greek accurately -- this means we have an issue. Calling on the failures of other works is no defence for the errors in a new one: of course there are errors in existing works -- that is why new versions of existing projects are undertaken, in part that such shortcomings might be overcome. What we must look at are the details of each work in its own right.

I most certainly do not suggest that my offered alternatives in these instances are the best options, but I do believe it is quite clear that the problems I've identified with the Greek (as well as the English) are actual problems -- and readers should be aware of these. This is why we review, critically engage with and discuss published materials: so that readers can know more about the issues involved in any given text. As the HOB is an ongoing work-in-progress, this means such discussion might -- if the translator is receptive -- influence future activities; but such discussion has value in its own right as a means of helping readers identify and engage with questions over what is already published.

So let us be done with the discussion of why we're inclined to behave the way we behave, or respond to people the way we've responded to them, and return to the actual text. And when and if readers wish to look at other translations in the same way, it is a simple matter to create a thread on any text and begin a critical discussion of it there.

INXC, ​Fr Irenei

#64 Panayioti Papoutsis

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 07:23 PM

Discussing a book's perceived shortcomings is certainly well within the perview of a public forum, regardless of the alledged "bias" of the person making the remarks. If an author chooses to take issue with those comments, he is certainly well within his "rights" to do so. However, those comments, made in a public forum, are "fair game" for further comment as well, whether or not he or she likes or agrees with them. Such is the nature of public discourse on the Internet. Getting all hot and bothered over it is not good for furthering the discussion nor for one's blood pressure and continued health. If one has a problem with criticism, it may be best to avoid the Internet altogether.

Or so it seems to this bear of little brain
Herman the asbestos Pooh


I agree. That's why I stay with law and courtrooms and having discussion with my nice even tempered Greek father. They are much nicer compared to this internet stuff. Its just to rough for me. Bye.

Peter

#65 readerdavid@stjohnroc.com

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 07:41 PM

even tempered Greek

Got a chuckle out of me on that one.

#66 Panayioti Papoutsis

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Posted 10 August 2011 - 10:45 PM

Got a chuckle out of me on that one.


You, me and my dad. Its nice to laugh. Keeps you grounded.




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