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Archangel Uriel


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#1 Reader Nektarios

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Posted 30 May 2011 - 11:43 PM

I can't find the reference to Uriel anywhere in the Orthodox Study bible. The note in the book of tobit says its found in 2nd Esdras (Ezra) 4:1 but its not there. Where am I supposed to be looking? I searched the internet but it says the same thing, not in the OSB.

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#2 Michael Stickles

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:54 AM

It's actually 2 Esdras only if you don't count Ezra and Nehemiah as 1 & 2. If you do, Uriel is in 4 Esdras. The text is online at Early Jewish Writings.

#3 Bryan J. Maloney

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 12:59 AM

You cannot find it because it has no Greek text. The so-called "2nd Esdras" is not what the Septuagint calls Esdras B (or 2nd Esdras). The "2nd Esdras" that mentions Uriel is known as "2 Esdras", "3 Esdras", "4 Esdras", "The Ezra Apocalpyse". It does not appear in the Septuagint, and, thus, not in most Old Testament versions used by the Orthodox. The book has appeared in some versions of Slavonic translations of Scripture. Uriel delivered messages very reminiscent of the chastisement of Job.

#4 Reader Nektarios

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 01:29 AM

It's referenced in the footnotes of the Orthodox Study Bible in the book of tobit. So its not in the English OSB? That's what I'm asking.

#5 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 31 May 2011 - 01:13 PM

It's referenced in the footnotes of the Orthodox Study Bible in the book of tobit. So its not in the English OSB? That's what I'm asking.


No- it's not in the OSB. You can though find it in the back section (Apocrypha) of the New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha. It's in 2 Esdras 4:1

2:4:1 Then the angel that had been sent to me, whose name was Uriel, answered 2 and said to me, "Your understanding has utterly failed regarding this world, and do you think you can comprehend the way of the Most High?"



As others correctly explain here, there are wide variations of what this book is actually called and whether it has a legitimate place within the canonical Scripture. In my latest Bible from Russia it's actually called 3 Ezdras and is placed within the section called: Non-canonical books. But by this expression though they don't mean 'improper' which is how we often interpret this in the west. Rather they mean more: not according to the established measure.

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#6 Reader Nektarios

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 02:51 AM

Thank you Father.

Another thing I was thinking, I have been doing research on the biblical canon and I think I am running into a maze here. I keep finding different answers in regard to the Old Testament Canon from the Greeks, Russians, Georgians, Ect. Is the books listed in the Orthodox Study Bible the official Eastern Orthodox Church canon for scriptural canon? What council set the canon as we have it today in Orthodox bibles i.e. OSB.

In Christ
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#7 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 03 June 2011 - 03:00 PM

When we keep in mind that the canon of Scripture refers to the common standard of scripture within the Church (a standard as much in regards to what establishes the measure of faith as an absolute list of accepted books) then I think that the OSB keeps to an acceptable and sober measure in this regard.

After all, it has always been evident from Church practice, that it is not as difficult to indicate what is among the full measure of the Faith, as what may fall completely outside of it. This after all is the idea behind the books which are considered to be apocryphal but which are still often read and found in many editions of our Orthodox bibles.

To get a better idea of this though it might be good to get hold of a number of different Orthodox bibles.

In Christ-
Fr Raphael

#8 Reader Nektarios

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 10:54 AM

There are other Orthodox Bibles in English other then the OSB?

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#9 Fr Raphael Vereshack

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Posted 04 June 2011 - 01:40 PM

Well, there are the various liturgical Epistle and Gospel books used by the various jurisdictions. Some are checked against Greek & Slavonic originals and others are just 'blessed' by our hierarchs to read. Similar to this have been various published Bibles over the years given blessings for personal reading or consultation- among them at one time very popular was the New Oxford Annotated Bible with the Apocrypha. This is still a useful bible for consultation since it has every addition any Orthodox bible is ever likely to have (eg 4 Maccabees).

I also looked at what OT books a very recent Bible from Russia has and compared this to the OSB. The only difference is that the Russian edition that I have (2009) has the 3rd Book of Ezdras which was referred to as 4 Esdras on the Forum. The OSB doesn't have this book.

In Christ-
Fr Raphael

#10 H. Smith

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:54 PM

I can't find the reference to Uriel anywhere in the Orthodox Study bible. The note in the book of tobit says its found in 2nd Esdras (Ezra) 4:1 but its not there. Where am I supposed to be looking? I searched the internet but it says the same thing, not in the OSB.

In Christ
Nektarios

 

This thread is interesting.

 

See here:

https://en.wikipedia...ing_conventions

 

Ezra and Nehemiah are the only two books sometimes called "Esdras" that are canonical for everyone and not apocryphal. The Russian Orthodox and Greek Churches disagree on whether Greek Esdras A / Slavic 2 Esdras is canonical. (See Russian Orthodox theologian Lophuhin's note on its noncanonicity here: http://lopbible.naro.../2ez/txt2ez.htm)

 

 

"Ezra" = Canonical Slavic & Vulgate "1 Esdras"

 

"Nehemiah" = Canonical Vulgate "2 Esdras"

 

Ezra + Nehemiah = Canonical Greek "Esdras B"

 

Canonical Greek Esdras A = Apocryphal Vulgate "3 Esdras" = Apocryphal Slavic "2 Esdras" = Apocryphal Protestant "1 Esdras"
 

Apocryphal Vulgate "4 Esdras" = Apocryphal Slavic "3 Esdras" = Apocryphal Protestant "2 Esdras"

 

 

(So if the OSB is telling you to check "2nd Esdras", then it must mean one of the last two books.)


Edited by H. Smith, 16 December 2016 - 09:57 PM.


#11 H. Smith

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 10:02 PM

Thank you Father.
I keep finding different answers in regard to the Old Testament Canon from the Greeks, Russians, Georgians, Ect. Is the books listed in the Orthodox Study Bible the official Eastern Orthodox Church canon for scriptural canon? What council set the canon as we have it today in Orthodox bibles i.e. OSB.

 

 

I think Russian and Greek Churches disagree on the canonicity of two or three books, and also their Bibles differ in a few such cases. Greek Esdras A is not considered by the Russians to be canonical, but it's included as apocryphal. Russians include Slavic 3 Esdras as apocryphal, but the Greeks don't even have it at all. There is no "Greek 3-4 Esdras" in the Greek Bibles. One reason could be that the manuscripts of 4 Esdras in Greek have been lost. The Russians relied on a non-Greek version.

 

The differences would have been set by each local Church.


Edited by H. Smith, 16 December 2016 - 10:03 PM.





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