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Is God not concerned for the salvation of fallen angels?


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#1 Nabil Daoud MD

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 04:26 PM

why god have been done everything for the
salvation of the fallen human being , but
he do nothing for the salvation of the
fallen angel?

#2 Rdr Daniel (R.)

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 05:18 PM

I think that when Adam fell he had the ability to repent for what he did, the angels are different from man and made there choice when they fell and are not able to repent.

In Christ.
Daniel,

#3 Dcn Alexander Haig

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 06:31 PM

Dear Nabil

At least part of the answer to your question is that angels are not made in the image and likeness of God - only man is. There is, therefore, a great difference between man and angel. The implication of this with the (possible) salvation of fallen angels will have to be addressed by more learned members of the forum.

With love in Xp
Alex

#4 Antonios

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 07:55 PM

Who says God is not concerned about the fallen angels? They have free will as well, and they are fallen because they choose to be fallen.

#5 Kusanagi

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 08:49 PM

Elder Paisios said the fallen themselves don't care about their salvation.

#6 Thomas Brunson

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:21 PM

Hi Nabil, I have a question. Why is it you use a lower case g when you type the name of God? I noticed that you are an Antiochian Orthodox, do they not print the name of God or Jesus in the same way we do with capital letters? Just wondering. +Thomas

#7 Herman Blaydoe

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Posted 16 August 2011 - 11:31 PM

1. We should remember that not everyone who is a member of these forums are native English speakers.

2. We don't know much about the angels, I suspect it is not our concern. Holy Scripture tells us what we need to know for our own salvation. I have to assume that God has communicated to His messengers what is important for them in an appropriate manner.

Or so it seems to this bear of admittedly little brain

Herman the Pooh

#8 Anna Stickles

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 11:57 AM

Hello all,

I see two different themes in the answers above. One is that the angels chose to fall. This is true. We are taught that Satan fell out of pride, knowing what he was doing. In the case of Man, however, the Patristic witness gives much less blame to Adam and Eve. It emphasizes that while, yes, disobedience was their choice and we cannot ignore or lessen this, yet they made this choice in some amount of ignorance being deceived by Satan. Therefore the circumstances of the two falls is different and the possibility for repentance is different.

We can see too that any man who follows in the path of Satan, nurturing pride and a fully knowing rebellion is also doomed to hell. Forgiveness and healing are possible because most people sin in some amount of ignorance and out of weakness. It is not even a sin in the likeness of Adam, much less sin in the likeness of Satan.

Issue number two is the mentioned by Daniel and Alex, and it has to do with the difference in nature between men and angels. I am not an expert, but it just makes me cringe to hear things that imply that God created the angels with the inability by nature to repent. We have to be very careful how we word things. God mercy for His creation is universal and certainly includes the angels.

#9 Moses Anthony

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 04:48 PM

Hi Nabil, I have a question. Why is it you use a lower case g when you type the name of God? I noticed that you are an Antiochian Orthodox, do they not print the name of God or Jesus in the same way we do with capital letters? Just wondering. +Thomas


Hmmm! Thomas ever hear of something called a 'typo', i.e., an error. It haappens to the most perfece ot us all the tine!


the sinful and unworthy servant

#10 Eric Peterson

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Posted 17 August 2011 - 10:34 PM

We have not had all that much revealed by God to us about angels and demons. Concern for fallen angels can be an avenue for demonic attack actually. Only those of lofty spiritual life and great humility and purity are able, I think, to have actual concern for demons. For the rest of us, they are implacable enemies and must be fought mercilessly. They are quite different than human enemies.

#11 IoanC

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 03:04 PM

Angels are spiritual (no body) beings who are incomparably superior to humans, which prevents us from understanding how/what they live and think. What we do know is that when an Angel makes a decision, it is a final one, because there's nothing an Angel can see or feel after that to make him change his mind (which means they are highly intuitive). We also know that the reason the fallen angels made the (final) decision to oppose God was out of self-pride (desire to be above God) and hatred towards Him (mind you, these are beings who know God face to face). So, being led by Lucifer, these spirits literally formed a kingdom of death that perpetually opposes God and His Creation. Talking about their Salvation would then be a mistake on our part for it's not that demons can't repent, they simply don't.

--Alex, you said that Angels are not made in the image and likeness of God. That is not true; they are, but they are purely spiritual, as opposed to us who are both physical and spiritual.

Edited by Ioan, 27 October 2011 - 03:25 PM.


#12 Paul Cowan

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:27 AM

Sorry Ioan,

Don't think I can agree with your post except for the self-pride thing.

Man was "made just a little lower than the angels" as the scripture says. so incomparably superior is stretching it a bit I think.
What source do you have on the final decision making process?

Angels are not necessarily made in the likeness of God. What do you mean by this? (powers, principalities, cherubim, seraphim) God made man in His image so we could worship Him. He made angels to serve Him.

I just don't agree with your post. sorry

Paul

#13 IoanC

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 07:34 AM

Sorry Ioan,

Don't think I can agree with your post except for the self-pride thing.

Man was "made just a little lower than the angels" as the scripture says. so incomparably superior is stretching it a bit I think.
What source do you have on the final decision making process?

Angels are not necessarily made in the likeness of God. What do you mean by this? (powers, principalities, cherubim, seraphim) God made man in His image so we could worship Him. He made angels to serve Him.

I just don't agree with your post. sorry

Paul



Well, I cannot exactly offer a particular source for "incomparably superior", but it is something I've come to realize myself over time (from experience and study). The Church does however mention that Angelic nature is so far above ours as to be incomprehensible to us; this is something I can testify to though I cannot offer a quote.

Perhaps, I can offer some examples of Angelic traits to explain my point -- They have powers over the physical world, even the fallen angels, who lost the Grace of god, could re-arrange or totally destroy the physical earth, if God allowed. Also, they can travel within the physical world at the speed of thought and they can penetrate matter. Their power of intellect is also great, as they obviously have what would appear to be indefinitely large capacity for storing information and calculating possibilities with lightning speed, in amazing detail and quantity; indeed, their knowledge and wisdom far surpases our sciences. They have no problem appearing as humans or animals or affecting and literally "playing" with the physical elements (such as sending fire from the sky). And this so far is only what we can actually comprehend about them. However, they are actually spiritual beings whose essence and life cannot be comprehended and known by us since our imagination cannot serve us in understanding what actually goes on inside them and how they perceive the Energies of God,
as opposed to us who have physical bodies. All angels have learned all they know directly from God whom they understand very intimately, as well as The Kingdom of Heaven.

Angels are in the image and likeness (to grow into it) of God. Even we are, so how can they not. Image means free-will, reason, etc. And likeness means progressing on the path to Holiness, thus, resembling God more and more.

As far as their decision making process, again, it is what I have gathered over time. There's a thread that touches on this:
http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?4584-Inability-of-Satan-and-his-angels-to-repent

Edited by Ioan, 28 October 2011 - 08:12 AM.


#14 Kusanagi

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 11:50 AM

In the life of Elder Cleopa and Elder Thaddeus both give accounts of when the some of the fallen angels transformed back into an Angel of Light.

#15 IoanC

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 02:34 PM

In the life of Elder Cleopa and Elder Thaddeus both give accounts of when the some of the fallen angels transformed back into an Angel of Light.


That's a funny made-up story expressing just how crazy and stubborn the fallen angels are. :)

#16 Paul Cowan

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 12:17 AM

I read a story of a nun who was being accused by the sisters for waking them too early for prayers with the church bells. She denied this but stayed up and caught the demon ringing the bells and with the name of Christ froze him in place. She then went to wake the sisters to see. he begged to be released and they said only if he sang the cherubic hymn (I think). He said if he did they would all melt away from the song of his voice and they said do it anyway. He started to sing and turned back to an angel of God and went back to heaven.

Ioan: all the attributes you give to the angels above, man is quickly acquiring. So not to sound blasphemous, but you make angels out to seem like advanced alien beings who we are technologically and evolutionarily quickly becoming. Sorry, I'm still not on board with you on this.

Yes, they are bigger, brighter and better than us, but...

Paul

#17 Olga

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 12:26 AM

I read a story of a nun who was being accused by the sisters for waking them too early for prayers with the church bells. She denied this but stayed up and caught the demon ringing the bells and with the name of Christ froze him in place. She then went to wake the sisters to see. he begged to be released and they said only if he sang the cherubic hymn (I think). He said if he did they would all melt away from the song of his voice and they said do it anyway. He started to sing and turned back to an angel of God and went back to heaven.


A very similar story is that of Abba Joseph and the Demon:

With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon who had come to tempt him.

“Release me, Father, and let me go,” pleaded the demon, “I will not come to tempt you again.”

“I will gladly do that, but on one condition,” replied the monk. “You must sing for me the song that you sang before God’s Throne on high, before your fall.”

The demon responded, “You know I cannot do that; it will cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father, no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live.”

“Then you will have to remain here in my cell,” said the monk, “and bear with me the full struggle of repentance.”

“Let me go, do not force me to suffer,” pleaded the demon.

“Ah, but then you must sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall with Satan.”

So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang, the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visible and invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba’s humble cell, and the walls which had enclosed it were no more. Ineffable love and joy surged into the very depths of the being of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.


Edited by Olga, 29 October 2011 - 01:11 AM.
corrected spacing


#18 IoanC

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 06:59 AM

"His hair was auburn, his face oval, and his beauty such as I cannot describe because it was comparable to nothing human." --From Mother Alexandra's Book, The Holy Angels.


Another book on the subject: http://www.esoteric....lHierarchy.html

It's good to form a strong relationship with our Guardian Angel, and also with the other hyerarchies; in the following article we can find out what each hierarchy can do for man, so we can pray to them: http://www.sfaturior...ices_angels.htm

Paul, I am not suggesting that angels are a kind of more advanced humans, on the contrary, they are transcendent beings meaning they are above us in a way we do not understand (otherwise they wouldn't transcend us). Maybe my description in the prev. comment was not the greatest on my part; probably, best to read literature on them. :)

#19 Anna Stickles

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 12:03 PM

Are the above stories apocryphal? I thought demons could not repent.

#20 IoanC

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Posted 29 October 2011 - 02:00 PM

Are the above stories apocryphal? I thought demons could not repent.


They are made-up stories in order to express the power of The Holy Cross, of Repentace,etc, and to be even funny, as I noticed.
No demons don't repent and there is a canon against those who believe that (an anathema!).




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