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Is God not concerned for the salvation of fallen angels?


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#21 Aidan Kimel

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 01:37 AM

The following two articles on St Isaac the Syrian may be of interest to those who are following this and similar threads:

Theologian of Love and Mercy by Met. Hilarion Alfeyev

Universalism of Salvation by Waclaw Hryniewicz

#22 Ilaria

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 01:04 PM

Angels are not necessarily made in the likeness of God. What do you mean by this? (powers, principalities, cherubim, seraphim) God made man in His image so we could worship Him. He made angels to serve Him.


I have searched a bit for the translation in English of this highly important paragraph ' And God said Let us make man in our image after our likeness';
in the Romanian version we have ' towards His likeness' - according to the Holy Fathers, this is a process, an endless process, for man to become more and more in His likeness; and it is precisely a gift for man, not for angels.
Indeed mother Alexandra described the angel as incomparably to human beings, but did she also mention whether she had a vision of a saint, of the Mother of God, for instance? Somebody told me this true story: he was visiting a monastery and wanted to take a photo of a certain monk - but the monk politely, refused, saying ' I'm changing, the photo wouldn't be relevant'
Only remember the hymns dedicated to the Mother of God -'More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim '

#23 Donald Lee McDaniel

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Posted 01 December 2011 - 08:12 AM

Ilaria,

The Angels are higher in nature than mankind, and because of this, they are thus closer in being to the Godhead than mankind. Whether God created them in His image and likeness, the Scriptures are unclear.
If they are created in His image and likeness, they are superior in image and likeness to men.

However, the Angels are spiritual beings, not carnal beings, like men. They actually have no form, although they can assume the form of men or women temporarily. All images of Angels are taken from human visons. Not visions of the eye, but visions of the spirit and intellect. Since men prefer to see with their eyes, we tend to create images in our imagination of spiritual beings.

Either the monk has been away from mankind too long, or he was speaking on an intellectual and spiritual level. I suggest you read Summa Theologica, by Saint Thomas Aquinas. He explains these things much better than I can ever think to. He is very tedious to read, but well worth reading. God will also increase your patience by this exercise of will.

Your servant for the sake of the Son of God, the Eternal Word, as expressed in the Man, Christ Jesus, by the FAther of us all, through the Spirit of the Godhead,

Donald Lee McDaniel

#24 Jack R.

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Posted 06 December 2011 - 10:40 PM

In my limited understanding, when angels sinned, they did so outisde of our realm of space and time such that decisions they made are also timeless.

#25 Jan Sunqvist

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 05:51 AM

If the implication that fallen angels made their decision outside of realm of time and space, is correct, then could someone clarify what outside time and space really means? Were they not at one point in 'time' non-fallen, ie originally, and at one point in 'space' non-fallen ie while still in Heaven?

#26 Fabio Lins

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 11:47 AM

Love binds us eternally to whatever we love. If you love God, when God is all that remains, then you will be in eternal happiness. If you are in anything else, since nothing else remains of itself, but only through God, than you will be in Hell. We can repent only because we sometimes love what is not God and sometimes we love God. Fallen angels fully love themselves and sin. Just like some people. And both are going to the same place of eternal damnation. It's true that people with such a radical self-idolatry are a minority. Just like the fallen angels in proportion to the number of loyal angels. But most of us humans live in a state that angels, either loyal or fallen do not have: the state of doubt, of unsureness. We do bounce back and forth, not knowing what we want to love, not being sure of things. Angels, both loyal and fallen, have a much more accute direct perception of things that do not allow doubt, but only direct intuitive knowledge. It's not that demons do not have the potential for repenting. They do. It's that they have taken their decision not on blurred knowledge of reality like we do, but on clear unequivocous knowledge, therefore, they are equally sure of what they chose and why they chose it. They always knew and know the consequence of their actions is going to be the Abyss. They were never delluded it would be anything else, like us humans. Yet, they chose the Abyss. They chose Hell and the Eternal Prison. That is what they want and what they love, where they want to go and where they want to lead us to. For all the pain this will mean they feel deep in their hearts it is worth it. They love to be damned. They love to be away from God. They love their suffering. And that is why they do not repent,and not that God made them unable to do so. They simply won't do it because they knew the consequences perfectily and thouroughly desired them.

#27 Fabio Lins

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 11:56 AM

Just as an example. When I was a teen, we had a friend whose father was an absent father, a violent husband (after divorce a womanizer who would try to seduce even our female friends) and a corrupt police officer. Once our friend had a very serious talk with him about his behaviour. I never forgot his reply: "Son, do not try to teach me what is right and what is wrong. I know the difference. I prefer what is wrong." He, though, makes this choice based on imperfect human perception. So he can repent. Demons made exactly the same choice, but based on perfect knowledge. That is why they theoretically could, but won't repent.

#28 Jan Sunqvist

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Posted 07 December 2011 - 06:42 PM

Love binds us eternally to whatever we love. If you love God, when God is all that remains, then you will be in eternal happiness. If you are in anything else, since nothing else remains of itself, but only through God, than you will be in Hell. We can repent only because we sometimes love what is not God and sometimes we love God. Fallen angels fully love themselves and sin. Just like some people. And both are going to the same place of eternal damnation. It's true that people with such a radical self-idolatry are a minority. Just like the fallen angels in proportion to the number of loyal angels. But most of us humans live in a state that angels, either loyal or fallen do not have: the state of doubt, of unsureness. We do bounce back and forth, not knowing what we want to love, not being sure of things. Angels, both loyal and fallen, have a much more accute direct perception of things that do not allow doubt, but only direct intuitive knowledge. It's not that demons do not have the potential for repenting. They do. It's that they have taken their decision not on blurred knowledge of reality like we do, but on clear unequivocous knowledge, therefore, they are equally sure of what they chose and why they chose it. They always knew and know the consequence of their actions is going to be the Abyss. They were never delluded it would be anything else, like us humans. Yet, they chose the Abyss. They chose Hell and the Eternal Prison. That is what they want and what they love, where they want to go and where they want to lead us to. For all the pain this will mean they feel deep in their hearts it is worth it. They love to be damned. They love to be away from God. They love their suffering. And that is why they do not repent,and not that God made them unable to do so. They simply won't do it because they knew the consequences perfectily and thouroughly desired them.



Fabio, may I ask how you know this? We don't know ourselves, yet presume we can understand angels and demons...

If they choose to do what they do in 'clear unequivocal knowledge' of Truth, ponder the implications of this on our understanding of dualism between 'good and evil'. In other words, if you agree that evil is absence of good, yet the Angels in full knowledge reject good because 'they love their suffering', well, I don't know what to say, I can't pick this apart, but something is rather odd with this picturing of beings we don't understand...

#29 Johannes Martin

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 12:21 AM

As God loves all his creation, he loves the angels too and is therefore in a way concerned too for every angel. As God does NOT force and accepts the free will and choice of his creation, I think he had to force the fallen angels to turn them back to paradise.
But I think it is not our concern, because He is the Judge. And what will be the fate of the angel after the final Judgement? Sometimes I wonder if we should not hesitate to speak about such things, because we do know so little about these things.
An orthodox priest once told me, even if it is a heresy to say: all people of mankind will be saved, still we are allowed to HOPE that hell is empty.
And as the church teaches that even if a person after death (after the 40th day) goes to HADES (not hell, very important difference, because many confuse it) it is possible through the prayers of the church that a person still can be saved and after the second coming of Christ and the final judgement the person does not go to hell but to paradise. I am not a theologican, but I think, we know not everything about this life, little about life after death and very little about life after the second coming of Christ.
We cannot comprehend these matters, as God is Love and God and wants everybody to be saved, so I think we cannot fully understand hell. I remember how Saint Anthony the Great Saint once wondered why there are so many good persons who are poor and so many wrech persons who are rich. And then God did reprove him as he (Anthony) should not concern himself with these things. And Anthony was a Saint. So I think we should just trust God and what the church teaches.

Edited by Johannes Martin, 08 December 2011 - 12:23 AM.
ommiting of words


#30 Fabio Lins

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 01:20 AM

Fabio, may I ask how you know this? We don't know ourselves, yet presume we can understand angels and demons...

If they choose to do what they do in 'clear unequivocal knowledge' of Truth, ponder the implications of this on our understanding of dualism between 'good and evil'. In other words, if you agree that evil is absence of good, yet the Angels in full knowledge reject good because 'they love their suffering', well, I don't know what to say, I can't pick this apart, but something is rather odd with this picturing of beings we don't understand...


Jan, to answer that I need another piece of information. What kind of knowledge or explanation would you accept? How do you know the things you are sure you know and why are you sure of them? Because only by understanding what makes things make sense to you can I show you how I know that.

#31 Jan Sunqvist

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Posted 08 December 2011 - 02:02 AM

Jan, to answer that I need another piece of information. What kind of knowledge or explanation would you accept? How do you know the things you are sure you know and why are you sure of them? Because only by understanding what makes things make sense to you can I show you how I know that.


To be honest, I am not sure I know anything... anything that involves myself, let alone the relationship between God and otherworldly beings...

There are alternative explanations on fallen angels from Christian heretical teachings and Jewish mysticism etc. Nevertheless, assuming that those notions are deceptions, how is it spiritually profitable for an Orthodox Christian to understand and see the devil as the absolute enemy of God and human kind? Seing fallen angels as beings who in 'full knowledge of Truth' are not moved by it, and prefer to and as you said 'love' to suffer. In what sense are they 'suffering'?? Now, think about this... does this not bring one to a place of intellectual humility regardless of which point of view one subscribes to?




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